Posted on 10/30/2012 6:32:37 AM PDT by marshmallow
It's precisely because such things as devils, vampires, and demons aren't real that they are fun.
Point taken, but I think there’s an added demonic dimension to Halloween that there isn’t in, say, the Godfather. We’re supposed to be horrified by the Corleones. Supposed to be. :)
People have the same strain of corruption and blood lust that they've always had. People didn't flock to the bloody executions and gladiatorial games because fifty lucky winners would get a free iSlave after the last event, they went to see the death and mutilation.
Halloween has gone the way of everything else that makes a buck. People have expanded it in both the childish fun for kids and ghoulish debauchery for adults directions to maximize the number of people willing to spend money in order to participate in whichever sort of Halloween they prefer.
You can't eliminate the corruption that's in people's hearts, only Christ can do that and only in those who are willing to surrender to Him, take up their cross, and follow Him. The best a society as a whole can do is to limit the opportunities people have to feed and grow that streak of corruption.
Then I apologize, though I was certain you had made your rejection of those chapters clear.
As for Jesus being born on the 25th of December, you show me some contrary evidence.
"Oh yeah; prove it wasn't!" is hardly the most exacting logical argument.
Like I said, Hippolytus mentions it specifically around 200. Chrysostom calls it an immemorial tradition of the Roman Church based on the census records.
Actually, if I had to guess I’d say there was an underlying Hebrew date (25 Kislev?), which was conflated with the Incarnation and rendered into the local calendars haphazardly (25 Pachon, 25 Pharmuthi, January 6th).
1/6 was originally picked as the observance of the baptism of J*sus because it coincided with the ancient Egyptian Nile festival. Thus it became the "sanctification of the waters."
What I am objecting to in threads like this is the emerging "fundamentalist" attitude towards church tradition (an attitude that I had never been aware of before; certainly I can't recall any serious defense of the historicity of liturgical celebration dates before quite recently) when compared with the skepticism and hostility toward the Jewish festivals, which were given to Israel not by any prophet or any human being whatsoever but directly from the Mouth of the Invisible G-d. I myself have read serious claims by Catholic apologists that such Jewish festivals as Sukkot were adapted from pagan festivals--an argument that not only assumes the documentary hypothesis but is utterly at odds with all the Biblical and historical evidence.
According to Jewish Tradition Ro'sh HaShanah is the anniversary of the day Adam and Eve were created. Do you really mean to say that you accept this? I find it very hard to believe that any modern Catholic would, and when this skepticism and irreverence is contrasted with the neo-fundamentalism of the argument that "J*sus really was born on December 25" I find it quite infuriating.
Another point: the traditional chrstian attitude towards pagan vis a vis Jewish festivals is horrendous. Pagan festivals are "baptized" by being adapted while Jewish festivals are absolutely and positively forbidden. I don't suppose you can see where my objection to this lies, but it is at the heart of the impositions of chrstianity. If pagan feasts can be "baptized," then why are the Jewish holidays, and indeed the entire Jewish calendar all but banned?
The fact that chrstianity adapted the calendar and feasts of pagan Rome and rejected and anathematized those of Judaism forever give the lie to the annoying claim that chrstianity "fulfilled" Judaism. If anything, chrstianity has only fulfilled paganism.
Sorry Golas, but I cannot resist...
Your name means something like ‘bare-ass’ or naked in Polish...
In light of your post on clothing on a thread related to Poland, I found it a bit funny... With all due respect, sir!
If you don’t believe me, simply turn off your filter on Google and search ‘golas’.
That's probably the way you internally characterized my exegesis. I would never *dare* call it rejection or mythologizing....I am careful to stay within the bounds of tradition, although not tradition as it is assumed and defined by literalists but as it actually exists.
1/6 was originally picked as the observance of the baptism of J*sus because it coincided with the ancient Egyptian Nile festival.
Where did you get that information? Egyptian Christians differed on the date of His birth, an unusual fact if there was an Egyptian festival at the heart of it. Clement of Alexandria tells us some said 24 or 25 Pharmuthi, some said 25 Pachon. I'm not sure what the date was of this Nile festival you are thinking of, but I can't find any that match those possible dates.
And we've hashed this out before, but don't lump me in with other apologists you read.
First, I am not dogmatically asserting the historical veracity of these dates...just trying to correct the record. They are worth celebrating no matter where they fall on the calendar. Second, I haven't made a specific study of the Jewish festivals but I am inclined to agree with you that they were commanded by God rather than borrowed from the Gentiles.
If you're asking me to simply accept 1 Tishri as a settled dogmatic proposition, I won't. That's certainly the common position. But in Talmud Rosh Hashanah Rabbi Joshua put the Creation in Nisan. Some later authorities held that the world was created in the realm of thought in 1 Tishri but in the realm of action in 1 Nisan. So I'm not sure why I absolutely must hold to something that the sages differed on.
To your last point, let's remember that Pesach made it into the calendar wholesale and took the most important spot. The Christian Pascha has no pagan antecedent. Shavuot also made it into the calendar as Pentecost. Let's also remember that the Patriarchs are remembered in the Martyrology and have their own feast days.
But largely you are right--Jewish holy days generally were not carried over. My working hypothesis is that the destruction of the Jewish Christian community in the 2nd century eliminated an example of Jewish-Christian orthodoxy for the rest of the Gentile world and caused a long-standing dichotomy between Jews and Gentiles to reassert itself with a vengeance. I earned criticism from a traditional Catholic apologist for my defense of the Association of Hebrew Catholics on precisely this point--that their celebration of Jewish festivals was entirely orthodox. I frankly can't see how anyone can argue the contrary--what do they think the Apostles were doing in Jerusalem post Pentecost?
The surname originally had an ‘h’ on the end. It got ‘de-ethnicized’ at Ellis Island.
And I’m only bare-assed in the shower or in bed. XD
hmmmmmmmmmm
Hmmm don’t turn off your smut filter and search dupa.... In Romanian, it means “after”, like ‘dopo’ in Italian, ‘despues’ in Spanish...
But in Polish, it is a vulgar word for ass, but the vulgarity level is more like a$$hole.
In contrast, halloween at least the way it is today is obnoxious and I personally don't find it fun. Of course in the US if people want to play it, ok, why not? but in Poland, if they can ask for it not to take place, it's a new thing
I prefer the term “pupa” :)
Pupa, tyłek = hiny, backside
:-)
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