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To: MarkBsnr; Natural Law; Alex Murphy; terycarl
You certainly win the award for the most creative clipart. Keep it coming.

"However, I must agree with my friend Natural Law. If one does not consider the Gospels the highest and most sacred revelation of God to man; the New Testament to be viewed through the prism of the Gospels and OT to be viewed through the prism of the New, why then, the very intent and importance of the Incarnation comes into immediate question."

Herein lies our bright line. The RCC focuses on the Gospels (they are always used in the homily) as if the incarnation and Jesus' ministry on earth is the central message of the Bible. Additionally, they usually speak as though Jesus is teaching that life consists of obeying the Golden Rule (again, in the Gospels). I observe that this places the emphasis on a call to a highly ethical life, with a parachute for slippages. Commendable, if it is true.

You know what comes next, though, don't you Mark. Hermeneutics, my FRiend. If we read the end of the story, from the Book which your org repeatedly lays claim to, we find that Paul explains that Jesus was not teaching men to obey. He was breaking their backs with impossibly high bars of holiness (higher than that velocipede). When He said, "You have heard it said, thou shall not commit murder...But I say to you, ...whoever shall say, 'You fool' shall be guilty enough to go into the hell of fire.", He was not training us in righteousness. He was frustrating our sense of being able to actually be good enough to please God. If Natural Law wants to live the Gospels, he might want to consider his ultimate destination for implying I was a "sick person". Sounds like "you fool" to me.

But, that is not the intent of the Gospels. As Paul said, the message is that there is none righteous enough, there are none who seek God. This was the embedded message in David's Psalms & the entire OT. Jesus was simply bringing this truth to bear on the Jewiish community. And, most did not get it.

But, they did get that He was disturbing their delicate sense of dignity. He was offending their claims that they were doing the Law. So, they killed Him. And, here, my FRiend is the central point of the Bible. The crucifixion, burial and resurrection...not the incarnation. Had the blood not flowed, you might not be rescued. The Lamb of God slain BEFORE the foundation of the world had to be slaughtered, "...by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God,..." so that you might be rescued from yourself.

It is this fact that Paul says is the central message of the Book. Rome's error is that their focus on "religion", another self-help program, which in all honesty uses themselves as the main player...not Jesus, does not achieve what they wish it would. The seven sacraments, sacerdotalism, absolution, etc. all actions/works, but none of which will make one worthy to stand before God. And, none of that is even in the Book.

The simple message of the Book is that salvation in Jesus is by grace, through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is a gift of God, not by actions/works, lest anyone turn into a great big organization which cannot set its ego aside and allow Jesus to be center stage. (a loose paraphrase of Eph. 2). Grace to you.

51 posted on 11/02/2012 9:58:58 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; MarkBsnr
"The RCC focuses on the Gospels (they are always used in the homily) as if the incarnation and Jesus' ministry on earth is the central message of the Bible."

There is no "as if" about it. Everything in the Bible is ultimately about His life, death and resurrection.

Peace be with you.

52 posted on 11/02/2012 11:40:36 AM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Dutchboy88; Natural Law
Herein lies our bright line. The RCC focuses on the Gospels (they are always used in the homily) as if the incarnation and Jesus' ministry on earth is the central message of the Bible. Additionally, they usually speak as though Jesus is teaching that life consists of obeying the Golden Rule (again, in the Gospels). I observe that this places the emphasis on a call to a highly ethical life, with a parachute for slippages. Commendable, if it is true.

Not quite an accurate description, but good enough for this reply to post.

You know what comes next, though, don't you Mark. Hermeneutics, my FRiend. If we read the end of the story, from the Book which your org repeatedly lays claim to, we find that Paul explains that Jesus was not teaching men to obey. He was breaking their backs with impossibly high bars of holiness (higher than that velocipede). When He said, "You have heard it said, thou shall not commit murder...But I say to you, ...whoever shall say, 'You fool' shall be guilty enough to go into the hell of fire.", He was not training us in righteousness. He was frustrating our sense of being able to actually be good enough to please God.

Very good. You bring up hermeneutics. That is the art and science of text interpretation. Now, Scripture was written partially in Hebrew and Aramaic and partially in Greek. The OT was partially translated from Aramaic to Hebrew (and vice versa). The Greek and Hebrew was translated to Latin. The Greek, Hebrew and Latin was translated to English. There have been several translations of English to English as the language updated and more information was found from the Greek, Hebrew and Latin.

Back to hermeneutics. It is what you think that the interpretation is. Even given that a tome written in English for English speakers (ever attended literature classes?) is always understandable to all English speakers (an admission that I do not make), does that mean that that applies to multiple translations from various languages?

Pull up an online translation program such as Babel fish. Type in a sentence maybe 10 to 12 words (more if you feel lucky). Translate that into Latin. Translate that into Greek. Translate that into Hebrew. Then translate that back into English.

Compare the finished result with what you started with.

No, my friend. Without God as the interpreter, every human being will get something wrong. Probably a whole bunch of somethings, as the multiplicative proclivities of the children of the Reformation can show.

Jesus left us His teaching school. The Apostles and their successors. Paul especially was most insistent on his flock adhering to the Church's teachings, not on any interpretation of their own - or anyone else's.

Most people treat hermeneutics as if it was a study of a certain newspaper cartoon.

But, that is not the intent of the Gospels. As Paul said, the message is that there is none righteous enough, there are none who seek God. This was the embedded message in David's Psalms & the entire OT. Jesus was simply bringing this truth to bear on the Jewiish community. And, most did not get it.

The Church has always taught that without God's saving Grace, none will seek Him. From the beginning. We agree that fallen man without God will fail.

But, they did get that He was disturbing their delicate sense of dignity. He was offending their claims that they were doing the Law. So, they killed Him. And, here, my FRiend is the central point of the Bible. The crucifixion, burial and resurrection...not the incarnation. Had the blood not flowed, you might not be rescued. The Lamb of God slain BEFORE the foundation of the world had to be slaughtered, "...by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God,..." so that you might be rescued from yourself.

Very good. We do teach that. I have been instructed by Protestants on FR (and elsewhere) that the crux of Christianity is the crucifixion and death (leaving off the Resurrection). I have always strongly objected; you may have been a participant on some of those FR threads.

It is this fact that Paul says is the central message of the Book. Rome's error is that their focus on "religion", another self-help program, which in all honesty uses themselves as the main player...not Jesus, does not achieve what they wish it would. The seven sacraments, sacerdotalism, absolution, etc. all actions/works, but none of which will make one worthy to stand before God. And, none of that is even in the Book.

All will stand before God and be called on everything that they do and do not do. And why. All, by the way, is in the Book. Paul spends much ink instructing us on works that are required of us. The bishop of Jerusalem - James - tells us that faith without works is simply not - it is dead.

The simple message of the Book is that salvation in Jesus is by grace, through faith, and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is a gift of God, not by actions/works, lest anyone turn into a great big organization which cannot set its ego aside and allow Jesus to be center stage. (a loose paraphrase of Eph. 2). Grace to you.

The Church saves nobody. It is the teaching authority that Jesus left on Earth to point the way to Him. That is all. His salvation is from Him alone, not the Church. His Judgement is from Him alone, not the Church. The Pope is sometimes called the servant of the servants of Christ. If you would, take a few minutes and review the life of the last few Popes, including our current Pontiff (bridge builder). Perhaps you might consider differently.

I believe you to be a good man. And I thank you for this conversation (a long way from some years back) and your blessing. Right back atcha. Grace and peace to you, my friend.

54 posted on 11/02/2012 5:01:38 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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