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To: Natural Law; terycarl; All
Yet all are unified and in 100% agreement with 100% of the Catechism, rendering all differences in disciplines theologically superficial and not at all dogmatic.

Most of the key theological differences among Protestants are in just two areas: Church govt and the Sacraments.

Likewise, among the Catholic splinter orders, there are distinctives in church govt.

For most of the Catholic orders, their authority of oversight comes down via a superior general.

That isn't true of the Benedictines (Order of St Benedict), which "has a system of 'independent houses'" in which "each abbey is autonomous"
Source: Catholic religious order

Sorry...but autonomous Benedictine abbeys are kind of like the free-floating single non-denominational churches out there...

Per the link above, "The The Canons Regular of Saint Augustine are in a situation similar to that of the Benedictines. They are organized in eight 'congregations', each headed by an 'abbot general', but also have an 'Abbot Primate of the Confederated Canons Regular of Saint Augustine'. And the Cistercians are in thirteen 'congregations', each headed by an "abbot general" or an 'abbot president', but do not use the title of 'abbot primate'."

So the Catholics have all these relatively autonomous Benedictines, Augustinians, and Cistercians on the loose...structured under a highly distinctive govt...just like the Protestants arrange themselves distinctly church govt wise [Presbyterians under a Presbyter/elder govt; etc.]

64 posted on 11/27/2012 9:04:47 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
"Likewise, among the Catholic splinter orders, there are distinctives in church govt."

No there are not. All Catholic governance, regardless of the order, is through the Episcopacy lead by the Bishop of Rome. The orders you cited differ most in their missions and the disciplines that serve them, not in their theology or governance. Catholicism can and does speak with one voice and one Truth.. The same cannot be said of the thousands of Protestant churches.

Peace be with you.

65 posted on 11/27/2012 9:15:50 PM PST by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Colofornian; Natural Law
The 100% "unity" boasted of by the Roman Catholic Church is quite shallow for there are many differences in disciplines as well as theologically and dogmatically. There is a RICH history of it as well. From the esteemed book Dogmas of the Papacy by Rev. J.A. Wylie, LL.D. and the chapter called Unity of the Church of Rome, we find numerous examples that prove "the unity of the Church of Rome is not an organism, but a petrifaction". He states:

    The Church, say the Papists, must possess certain great marks or characters. These must not be of such a kind as to be discoverable only by the help of great learning and after laborious search; they must be of that broad and palpable cast that enables them to be seen at once and by all. The Church must resemble the sun, to use Bellarmine's illustration, whose resplendent beams attest his presence to all. By these marks is the important question to be solved,--"Which is the true Church?" Papists hold, and endeavour to prove, that in the Church of Rome alone are these marks to be found; and therefore that she, to the exclusion of all other societies, is the holy Catholic Church.

    The first indispensable characteristic of the true Church, possessed by the Church of Rome alone, as Papists hold, is UNITY. Bellarmine places the unity of the Church in three things,--the same faith, the same sacraments, and the same head, the Roman pontiff. This unity is defined by Dens to consist "in having one head, one faith, in being of one mind, in partaking of the same sacraments, and in the communion of the saints." With regard to the first,--the unity of the head,--Dens holds that the Church of Rome is signally favoured; for nowhere but in her do we find one visible head "under Christ," namely, the Roman pontiff, "to whom all bishops, and the whole body of the faithful, are subjected." In him, continues Dens, the Church has a "centre of union," and a source of "authority and discipline, which extends in its exercise throughout the whole Church." "What is the Church?" it is asked in Dr. Reilly's Catechism. It is answered, "It is the congregation of the faithful, who profess the true faith, and are obedient to the Pope." Romanists lay much stress likewise upon the fact, that the same creed, particularly that of Pope Pius IV., drawn up in conformity with the definitions of the Council of Trent, is professed by Roman Catholics in all parts of the world; that the same articles of faith and morality are taught in all her catechisms; that she has one rule of faith, viz. "Scripture and tradition;" and that she has "the same expositor and interpreter of this rule,--the Catholic Church." "Nor is it in her doctrine only," says Dr. Milner, "that the Catholic Church is one and the same: she is also uniform in whatever is essential in her liturgy. In every part of the world she offers up the same unbloody sacrifice of the holy mass, which is her chief act of divine worship; she administers the same seven sacraments." As regards the communion of saints, we find it defined in Reilly's Catechism to consist in the members of the Church "being partakers of the spiritual blessings and treasures that are to be had in it;" and these, again, are said to consist in "the sacraments, the holy sacrifice of the mass, the prayers of the Church, and the good works of the just." Generally, Papists, in deciding this point, discard altogether the graces and fruits of inward Christianity, and found entirely on outward organization.

    Bellarmine asserts that the fathers have ever reckoned communion with the Roman pontiff an essential mark of the true Church; but when he comes to prove this, he leaps at once over the apostles and inspired writers, and the examples of the New Testament, where we find numerous churches unquestionably independent, and owning no subjection to Rome, and comes to those writers who were the pioneers of the primacy. When one man only in the world is permitted to think, and the rest are compelled to agree with him, unity should be of as easy attainment as it is worthless when attained. Yet despite the despotism of force and the despotism of ignorance, which have been employed in all ages to crush free inquiry and open discussion in the Church of Rome, serious differences and furious disputes have broken out in her. When we name the Pope, we indicate the whole extent of her unity. Here she is at one, or has usually been so; on every other point she is disagreed.

    The theology of Rome has differed materially in different ages; so that her members have believed one set of opinions in one age, and another set of opinions in another age. What was sound doctrine in the sixth century, was heresy in the twelfth; and what was sufficient for salvation in the twelfth century, is altogether insufficient for it in our day. Transubstantiation was invented in the thirteenth century; it was followed, at the distance of three centuries, by the sacrifice of the mass; and that again, in our day, by the immaculate conception of the Virgin. In the twelfth century, the Lombardic theology, which mingled faith and works in the justification of the sinner, was in repute. This had its day, and was succeeded in about a hundred years after by the scholastic theology. The schoolmen discarded faith, and gave works alone a place in the important matter of justification. On the ruins of the scholastic divinity flourished the monastic theology. This system extolled papal indulgences, adoration of images, prayers to saints, and works of supererogation; and on these grounds rested the sinner's justification.

    The Reformation came, and a modified theology next became fashionable, in which the grosser errors were abandoned to suit the newly risen light. But now all these systems have given place to the theology of the Jesuits, whose system differs in several important points from all that went before it. On the head of justification the Jesuitical theology teaches that habitual righteousness is an infused grace, but that actual righteousness consists in the merit of good works. Here are five theologies which have successively been in vogue in the Church of Rome. Which of these five systems is the orthodox one? Or are they all orthodox?

    But not only do we desiderate unity between the successive ages of the Romish Church; we desiderate unity among her contemporary doctors and councils. They have differed on questions of ceremonies, on questions of morals, and they have differed not less on the questions of the supremacy and infallibility. Contrariety of opinion has been the rule; agreement the exception. Council has contended with council; pope has excommunicated pope; Dominican has warred with Franciscan; and the Jesuits have carried on ceaseless and furious battles with the Benedictines and other orders. What, indeed, are these various orders, but ingenious contrivances to allay heats and divisions which Rome could not heal, and to allow of differences of opinion which she could neither prevent nor remove? What one infallible bull has upheld as sound doctrine, another infallible bull has branded as heresy. Europe has been edified with the spectacle of two rival vicars of Christ playing at football with the spiritual thunder; and what we find one holy father, Nicholas, commending as an assembly of men filled with the Holy Ghost, namely, the Council of Basil, we find another holy father, Eugenius, depicting as "madmen, barbarians, wild beasts, heretics, miscreants, monsters, and a pandemonium."

    But there is no end of the illustrations of papal unity. The wars of the Romanists have filled history and shaken the world. The loud and discordant clatter which rose of old around Babel is but a faint type of the interminable din and furious strife which at all times have raged within the modern Babel,--the Church of Rome.

    Such is the unity which the Romish Church so often and so tauntingly contrasts with what she is pleased to term "Protestant disunion." As a corporation, having its head at Rome, and stretching its limbs to the extremities of the earth, she is of gigantic bulk and imposing appearance; but, closely examined, she is seen to be an assemblage of heterogeneous materials, held together simply by the compression of force. It is a coercive power from without, not an attractive influence from within, that gives her being and form. The appearance of union and compactness which she puts on at a distance is altogether owing to her organization, which is of the most perfect kind, and of the most despotic character, and not to any spiritual and vivifying principle, whose influence, descending from the head, moves the members, and results in harmony of feeling, unanimity of mind, and unity of action. It is combination, not incorporation; union, not unity, that characterizes the Church of Rome. It is the unity of dead matter, not the unity of a living body, whose several members, though performing various functions, obey one will and form one whole. It is not the spiritual and living unity promised to the Church of God, which preserves the liberty of all, at the same time that it makes all ONE: it is a unity that degrades the understanding, supersedes rational inquiry, and annihilates private judgment. It leaves no room for conviction, and therefore no room for faith.

    It is a unity that extorts from all submission to one infallible head, that compels all to a participation in one monstrous and idolatrous rite, and that enchains the intellect of all to a farrago of contradictory, absurd, and blasphemous opinions. This is the unity of Rome. Men must be free agents before it can be shown that they are voluntary agents. In like manner, the members of the Church must have liberty to differ before it can be shown that they really are agreed. But Rome denies her people this liberty, and thus renders it impossible that it can ever be shown that they are united. She resolves all into absolute authority, which in no case may either be questioned or opposed.

    Dr. Milner, after striving hard, in one of his letters, to show that all Catholics are agreed as regards the "fundamental articles of Christianity," is forced to conclude with the admission, that they are only so far agreed as that they all implicitly submit to the infallible teaching of the Church. "At all events," says he, "the Catholics, if properly interrogated, will confess their belief in one comprehensive article, namely this, "I believe whatever the Holy Catholic Church believes and teaches." So, then, this renowned champion of Roman Catholicism, forced to abandon all other positions as untenable, comes at last to rest the argument in behalf of his Church's unity upon this, even the unreasoning and unquestioning submission of the conscience to the teaching of the Church. In point of fact, this "one comprehensive article" sums up the entire creed of the Papist: the Church inquires for him, thinks for him, reasons for him, and believes for him; or, as it was expressed by a plain-speaking Hibernian, who, making his last speech and dying confession at the place of execution, and resolved not to expose himself to purgatory for want of not believing enough, declared, "that he was a Roman Catholic, and died in the communion of that Church, and believed as the Catholic Church ever did believe, now doth believe, or ever shall believe."

    Put out the eyes of men, and there will be only one opinion about colour; extinguish the understandings of men, and there will be but one opinion regarding religion This is what Rome does. With her rod of infallibility she touches the intellect and the conscience, and benumbs them into torpor. There comes thus to reign within her pale a deep stillness, broken at times by ridiculous disputes, furious quarrels, and serious differences, on points termed fundamental, which remain unsettled from age to age,--the famous question, for instance, touching the seat of infallibility; and this profound quiescence, so like the repose of the tomb, accomplished by the waving of her mystic rod, she calls unity. (emphasis mine)

Some may refuse to read this because they are offended by the author's use of the words "papist", "Romanist", "Romish", "popery", etc., and they will dismiss anything that he may say simply because of this, though, I am not at all convinced this is the genuine reason. I think it is more like some are AFRAID to read it because it is true and admitting it is true would require a decision. Like many Mormons, as you know, there are some who would rather continue to go along rather than ever be challenged to think for themselves. For others, the thought of letting go of a lifetime of dedication to a cause is too high of a price to pay. So they would rather stop up their ears and pretend there IS no other truth but what they hold. As Wylie states, "When one man only in the world is permitted to think, and the rest are compelled to agree with him, unity should be of as easy attainment as it is worthless when attained."

67 posted on 11/27/2012 10:57:12 PM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Colofornian
Likewise, among the Catholic splinter orders, there are distinctives in church govt.

LOTS of folks wannabe the Alpha dog!

86 posted on 11/28/2012 3:26:30 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian; Natural Law; terycarl
Likewise, among the Catholic splinter orders, there are distinctives in church govt. -- err.. there are no "splinter orders" in terms of core religious dogma

So the Catholics have all these relatively autonomous Benedictines, Augustinians, and Cistercians on the loose...structured under a highly distinctive govt...just like the Protestants arrange themselves distinctly church govt wise -- these are the ways different groups of monks organize themselves, yet all believe in core dogmas -- for instance in the True Presence in the Eucharist

You cannot compare the religious orders to Protestants -- that is quite different as, taking the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist -- you may not believe that, but Lutherans do

Or take another core, fundamental religious belief, the Trinity and lets take your denomination of pentecostalism -- many pentecostals believe in the Triune Godhead, but Oneness Pentecostals do not

Or even in something like the keeping of Sabbath -- for most evangelicals it is on Sunday, some may say Saturday, but the Seventh Day Adventists say that Sunday keeping is the mark of the beast

These are core dogmatic differences between various non-Catholic groups, and it is erroneous to compare that to organization differences in religious orders which still hold the same core religious dogma.

158 posted on 11/29/2012 7:46:37 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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