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To: AnalogReigns
"Proceed to worship,..." is a quote from a Pope from the 1850s.

Not quite. It's a TRANSLATION not a direct quote written in English. I remember researching that line years ago. Couldn't find it in any reputable full translations of the document. Only found "worship" in phrases from antiCatholic articles. It is more properly translated "venerate." Just to be sure, I found a latin version of the document. The words used aren't the same as those used for worship of God.

Our vocabulary has not changed THAT radically in 150 years.

Our use of the word "worship" has changed somewhat. While we generally use it to reference our adoration of God, sometimes we still apply it toward others (eg, hero worship). When applied toward a human being we generally understand that the person isn't being worshiped as God but is being much admired or esteemed for particular qualities or actions.

Regarding your Duck principle, you're relying on external observations to judge matters taking place on the interior. Or are you saying we're worshiping hunks of stone?

Let's get that one out of the way, shall we? No, we aren't worshiping marble images. Yes, Catholics agree that worship of images/statues is forbidden and is idolatrous. But we do not believe that images themselves are forbidden. On the contrary we use them to help us order our hearts and minds toward things of God.

If you're tempted to say images ARE forbidden, I'd refer you to Ex 25:18 where God commands Moses to make golden cherubim and position them over the the mercy seat. He even said He'd meet him there. In Ex 28:31-34 we find that Aaron's priestly vestments are decorated with images. In Nm 21:8-9 we find God commanding Moses to make a bronze serpent. That serpent is broken only when it's used as an idol (2 Kg 18:4). In chapter 6 of 1 Kg we find Solomon building a temple filled with statues, which God hallows in 1 Kg 8:11. Would he have done that if the statues were idols? We can see from scripture that statues aren't forbidden only their improper use.

So, you may ask, is kneeling before an image proper use? No, not if you're rendering homage to the stone itself. But if you're kneeling in prayer as you contemplate what's represented in the image, that's hardly idolatry. Is it idolatry for me to kneel with my scriptures and read them as I pray? If not, why would it be idolatry for me to kneel and gaze on a representation of a person or scene from the gospel and contemplate a visual representation of what I've read in the gospel? I do this often before a crucifix. Or statues of Mary and Joseph holding the Christ Child. I'll probably kneel before a manger scene in the coming weeks.

If every knee shall bend at the mention of Christ's name, I reserve the right to bend the knee in contemplation of his mysteries! If that causes some to consider me an idolator, so be it. Scripture tells us that we give an account for our every word. Those who accuse Catholics of idolatry will render account for that. And we who use images for recollection or meditative prayer will account for every word of our prayer. If it's idolatrous, God will deal with us severely.

I will continue to kneel in front of a statue of Mary and ask God for the gifts to serve him as she did. To accept Him when it's inconvenient. Dangerous. Not in line with what I'd planned. Just as she did. If that makes me an idolator according to your Duck principle, so be it. I'm more concerned with God's assessment of me than Ockham's. Or yours.

Peace be with you.

63 posted on 12/08/2012 6:23:32 PM PST by PeevedPatriot
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To: PeevedPatriot

The Immaculate Conception needs no defense. The big question for those who struggle with the fact that Sacred Scripture is not explicit about this mystery is this; why would it be better if she were “full of sin” like the rest of us? Then, maybe Gabriel would have addressed her “hey sinner, God wants to rent your womb”, which seems to be the position one often hears from those who reject the Magister but accept the textbook. Maybe a well thought out presentation of why this is better for God and for us needs to be shown before we waste further energy in this regard?

By the way, she IS the Spirit of Christmas! Merry Christmas to all!


64 posted on 12/08/2012 8:13:13 PM PST by blackpacific
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To: PeevedPatriot

The Immaculate Conception needs no defense. The big question for those who struggle with the fact that Sacred Scripture is not explicit about this mystery is this; why would it be better if she were “full of sin” like the rest of us? Then, maybe Gabriel would have addressed her “hey sinner, God wants to rent your womb”, which seems to be the position one often hears from those who reject the Magister but accept the textbook. Maybe a well thought out presentation of why this is better for God and for us needs to be shown before we waste further energy in this regard?

By the way, she IS the Spirit of Christmas! Merry Christmas to all!


65 posted on 12/08/2012 8:21:37 PM PST by blackpacific
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