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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
I don’t see any specific saint called out for veneration in those quotes

There isn't any. The saints are venerated as an outpouring of love for them from the bosom of the flock. It is initially spontaneous. The Early Church considered friendship with Christ during his ministry on earth, or martyrdom for the faith sufficient proof of sainthood. Later, more formal methods came into use recognizing saints. but none of that had any specific form during the Apostolic times, and therefore the principles of venerating saints did not make it into scripture.

Individual acts of veneration can be seen in the scripture here and there. In Luke 11:27-28 someone venerates Mary, but does it with such a physiological focus "Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck" that Christ directs her attention to "all who hear the word of God, and keep it" Christ doesn't, however, repudiate the veneration of His mother in this episode. Similarly, in Acts 19:12 we read of veneration of the relics of the Apostles; at another time, the excessive veneration of the living apostles earns a rebuke when it crosses into worship (Acts 14:10, 13-14).

We also explicit endorsement of intercessory prayer in 1 Timothy 2:1, and we see Mary's advocacy before Christ and work on leading men to the faith in Christ in John 2:3,5. Of course, the general idea that saints are a part of our lives is simply in the knowledge that those who die in repentance and in faith have life everlasting, -- and again see Hebrews 11:39-40, 12:1-2.

58 posted on 12/09/2012 6:38:23 AM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex
Couple points...

In Luke 11:27-28 someone venerates Mary, but does it with such a physiological focus "Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck" that Christ directs her attention to "all who hear the word of God, and keep it" Christ doesn't, however, repudiate the veneration of His mother in this episode.

Here, it is helpful to look at both verses together, a focus on Scripture.

As he said this, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said to him, “Blessed is the womb that bore you, and the breasts that you sucked!” 28 But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” Luke 11:27-28 Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)

As you see, Jesus is not pointing to Mary as a specific, elevated saint at all, but rather to the general blessed nature of all followers of Christ. He also did not say, "Blessed rather are those of my Apostles or friends who hear the word of God...", he let it as the comprehensive "those" without qualification. It could even be taken, because of "rather", or in some translations, "more than that", that Jesus was arguing against holding Mary out as above others.

In Acts 19:12, people are healed and evil spirits are cast out when pieces of Paul's clothing are brought to them.

And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them. Acts 19: 11-12 RSVCE

That's it. No where else will you see guidance to keep these items, nor any other mention of the use of relics by Paul in his epistles or those writings of any of the other Gospel writers. Doing so risks applying an almost talismanic significance to those items, similar to the fashion by which the first Christians' pagan neighbors treated various objects.

To sum up, the fullness of Scripture should be consulted, as the veneration of Mary is not supported by Jesus Christ's own words (as he includes ALL Christians as blessed) and use of relics is not scripturally supported because only a single passage mentions miracles based on possession of physical objects in a specific place (Ephesus), and the text itself calls the miracle "extraordinary" in the preceding verse (or "unusual" in other texts). Full context IS important. Scripture does NOT discuss relics as currently conceived anywhere else. That means someone down the line interpretted a single line to make relic veneration into something unspoken of in Scripture.

119 posted on 12/09/2012 2:48:12 PM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: annalex

Your Mother and Brothers are here!

So?

Matthew 12:47-50


392 posted on 12/11/2012 3:36:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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