Did Mary have a bunch of kids? Mary's perpetual virginity before, during and after Jesus' birth

Catholic Bridge ^ | David MacDonald

[Not gonna take it anymore]

Luke was a greek and they have a word for cousin. Aramaic does not.

Elizabeth is also spoken of as a kinswoman.

[Iscool]

No. There was no word for “cousin” and so the word “brothers” was used in the ancient language.

You couldn't be more wrong...

Luk 1:36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

Mat 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

Obviously there IS a word for cousin and it was not used in Mat 13:55...And that's because there were no cousins there...

Mat 13:56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

ἀδελφή
adelphē
ad-el-fay'
Feminine of G80; a sister (natural or ecclesiastical): - sister.

Sister is sister...It is not kin, nor cousin nor kinsmen...It is sister...

Mat 13:57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

And the context is 'in Jesus' own house...No relatives...

That's why Bible Believers could never become Catholics...All this perversion of the scriptures to try to justify it's existance...

[Forward the Light Brigade]

Wasn’t the Protovangelium deemed apocrypha? In my opinion—the message of Jesus (Joshua ben Joseph) isn’t diminished by his having brothers and sisters. In fact, I respect him more. Even if he was married—doesn’t cause me to re-think his message of love—If he could do all he did—save mankind and have a wife too—that would prove his godhood.

[Campion]

Of course, you cite no verses calling James or any one else, except Jesus, a son or daughter of Mary.

Because there aren't any verses like that.

The whole "heos hou" ("until") argument has been addressed here

There's a reason why Luther explicitly endorsed the Perpetual Virginity, and why Calvin was violently offended when someone claimed he believed that Mary had other children. Luther and Calvin knew the Bible, too, and they knew that the argument against the Perpetual Virginity wasn't anywhere as easy to make as you pretend.

[Iscool]

Evangelicals have pointed to Mt 1:25 that says "but had no marital relations with her until she had borne son". They say it is proof that she had children after she had Jesus. The word "until" implies that an action did not take place up to a certain point. It says nothing of what happened after that point. For example, 2 Sam 6:23 says, "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until [heõs] the day of her death." This doesn't mean she had children after her death.

Now there you go again...You are dealing with non Catholics who believe the Bible...I'm sure you never never check a reference so see if you are being lied to...

2Sa 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

When your religion resorts to perverting the God breathed words of the Lord to sell it's brand of religion to it's own members, it falls flat on it's face...But you guys don't know any better because you are just following the Pied Piper...

[Campion]

The Greek word there is, I believe, “suggen”, which is “relative”. Translating it as cousin is making it more specific that the Greek actually supports.

[Iscool]

Truthfully, little of this matters. It is important that Mary was a virgin when the Christ was conceived and that He was Gods son. These discussions are distractions.

Not at all...They've got the Mother of Jesus right up there equal with God the Father...They call her the Queen of Heaven...They get their salvation from Mary...

And they can only do that by perverting the scriptures...

A lot of people are going to end up in Hell who are counting on Mary to provide their salvation for them...

They would have to deny Mary's deity if she actually had children besides Jesus as the Bible claims...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Once more, a “biblical” movie that’s biblically illiterate. At least in that instance.

[Campion]

The Greek says John “took her to his own”. No mention in the text of a home in Jerusalem. Jesus wasn’t making temporary lodging and travel arrangements when he said, “John, there is you mother ... Woman, there is your son.” A few moments before his death.

[Mr. K]

yeah! I NEED TO KNOW if Mary and Joseph were doing the big nasty- because it changes EVERYTHING if they were, I'll tell you..

Nevermind all the wonderful teachings of Jesus’ that we could be trying to discuss and promote- LET'S SPECULATE ON MARY'S SEX LIFE!!!

After all there is no admissionto heaven without an immaculate womb (did I get that right? God said so- didn't he?) The Maryanists will be SO PEEVED! (after all she has ‘an in’ with the big guy and can ‘intercede’ for us- you know, sort of like knowing Vinnie at the warehouse who can get it for you wholesale)

So... I wonder if she used birth control too I bet Jesus thought she was a skank too- "hey ma, quit doing it- I came outta there, you know"- I rememeber that was the sermon on the mount, right?

[Iscool]

Hence the painless and bloodless impregnation and partuition for Mary, most favored of women. She didn't have any of the curses consequent to sin. Great things were done for her by God her Savior. One of them was, she didn't have to be broken into, or broken out of.

If Jesus didn't have a natural birth, he didn't become human...If Jesus was created with Mary's supposed supernatural nature, Jesus couldn't have become a Man...If Jesus did not have a natural birth, then Jesus was not begotten...If there was no birthing process, Jesus was created, not born...

If Mary could not have been tempted to sin since she had no original sin in her, neither could Jesus be tempted...

[Mr. K]

"But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his hometown and in his own household.”"

Boy ain't that the truth

[Mrs. Don-o]

Sure. Nothing wrong with God saying in effect, "Here you go, Joseph. I got what I wanted: I used her. Now you can have her."

It's like using the vessels of the Temple for profane winebibbing (didn't one of the pagan conquerors of Jerusalem do that?) or using the Ark of the Covenant for a cheese cupboard. Not that there's anything wrong with wine and cheese. But it's the desecration of something intimately consecrated to the Lord, for common use; which is to say, a sacrilege.

[Iscool]

Secondly, Catholics do not worship Mary. We ask her to pray for us.

Catholic pray TO Mary, to provide salvation...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Once more, a “biblical” movie that’s biblically illiterate. At least in that instance.

[Campion]

Wow, you have an amazing number of mistaken beliefs.

If Jesus didn't have a natural birth, he didn't become human...

So people born by C-section aren't human?

If Jesus was created with Mary's supposed supernatural nature

Mary didn't have a supernatural nature, she has a human nature.

If Jesus did not have a natural birth, then Jesus was not begotten

Jesus, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is eternally begotten by the Father from before the ages. Nothing that happened, or didn't happen, or could have happened in Bethlehem could have changed that.

If Mary could not have been tempted to sin since she had no original sin in her

There's no Catholic doctrine that says that Mary could not have been tempted to sin, sorry.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"If Jesus didn't have a natural birth, he didn't become human..."

Here your whole argument goes wrong, because your first premise is wrong. Christ was incarnate, became man, because of Mary being His natural mother. She was His genetic mother; she was His gestational mother; she was His birth-giving mother; she was His nursing mother. That's all natural.

The only part that was different from your birth and mine, was that his birth wasn't a grueling episode of blood and struggle, anguish and pain. And why? Because those were the curses consequent to the primordial sin of Adam and Eve. If Adam and Eve had never sinned, then Eve's childbirths would have been painless too. The pain in childbirth only came to human mothers marred by sin, i.e. all mothers, unless one be sinless.

"If Jesus was created with Mary's supposed supernatural nature, Jesus couldn't have become a Man..."

Mary didn't have a supernatural nature!!! She had a Plan A human nature, which is to say, human nature as it was originally intended to be, a nature in the original justice of Eden and the original innocense of Eve before sin marred her nature. Mary had a human nature full of grace.

"If Jesus did not have a natural birth, then Jesus was not begotten..."

He did have a natural birth, as natural birth was supposed to be: see above.

"If there was no birthing process, Jesus was created, not born..."

No, He was begotten, not made. His birthing process was a real birth -- in fact, a birth according to the original, Eden-grounded, pre-sin human nature -- involving no curse, no violence, no injury to the mother's body, no pain.

It's the Muslims who believe Jesus was created like Adam in the womb of Mary. Christians, on evidence of Scripture, say He was begotten, not made; and that Mary gave Him birth.

"If Mary could not have been tempted to sin since she had no original sin in her, neither could Jesus be tempted..."

False premise again. Nobody says Mary could not have been tempted. Mary (originally without sin) could have been tempted, just as Eve (originally without sin) was in fact tempted. But Eve succumbed to the temptation; Eve sinned; Mary didn't.

[Iscool]

Sure. Nothing wrong with God saying in effect, "Here you go, Joseph. I got what I wanted: I used her. Now you can have her."

As I understand the bible, God looks pretty highly on marriage and all that it entails...He even likes babies...Lots of babies...