Orthodox Christianity

"the problem the reformed have is, they reject baptismal regeneration. read Augustine, read the Council of Orange, read all the Church Fathers, and by all means, read the Scriptures. they all teach baptismal regeneration. once this doctrine was rejected, all kind of errors follow."

Clearly, the problem that RCs have is that they do not recognize the Gospel taught by the book that they claim to have produced. It matters little that 500 errant men published documents, all the while suppressing 500000 believers who would not employ the same combative tactics. Your fallacious argument proves only that Trotsky/Stalin's world view was true...after all, name another Russian who dissented.

God knows whose version of the message comports with His word and whose version is the conglomeration of human tradition and error from the pit. These views are separated by a mile wide chasm. You have been moved to one side of this chasm.

"The answer to that question is no. As Peter states it gives us a clean conscience before God (1 Pet 3:21). Nothing more. Baptism is an AFTER THE FACT act. Those who are baptized (or have their household baptized) do so because they believe. People don't get baptized and then believe. They are already regenerated."

Here is good biblical theology. It allows the question to be informed by the text, not the other way around. Pay attention, dear readers, and learn from the man. Thank you Harley.

I don't know when this nonsense started, but there was never a reliance on using the Church decisions in place of the gospel for at least the first 600 years of the church.

That is an astounding statement. To condemn the heresy of Arius, the first council of Nicea convened in 325..

from:

http://www.thenazareneway.com/council_of_nicaea_nicea_325.htm

It was the decision of the council, formalized in the Nicene Creed, that God the Father and God the Son were consubstantial and coeternal and that the Arian belief in a Christ created by and thus inferior to the Father was heretical. Arius himself was excommunicated and banished.

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Back to don-o: Now we still have heresies that still get it wrong; and they are clearly marked as non-Christian - e.g. Mormons, JW's....

It may be asserted that the truth about the eternal existence of the Son was derived from Scripture sola, but the historical facts do not support that.

That is an astounding statement. To condemn the heresy of Arius, the first council of Nicea convened in 325..formalized in the Nicene Creed

Perhaps you didn't read all my post...

And the early fathers made it a POINT to claim the inerrant and infallibility of the scriptures-giving it a far higher standard than any writing in the early Church. The church did published creeds to keep doctrine straight and as benchmarks for reading the gospel. But the Church has gone far beyond simple creeds.

In the early writings of the church fathers we do not see them referring to other church fathers for primary support of their doctrinal beliefs. They referred and relied upon scripture. In fact, many of the heresies that arose in the Church were the result of people taking scripture out of context. Augustine relied upon scripture to refute the Pelagius heresy-who failed to use scripture but (flawed) "logic" and reasoning. Arguments to refute such heresies were developed based upon what was contained in scripture. Creeds were developed based upon the agreed understanding of scripture as general principles or guidelines.

For at least the last 300 years people have had little interest in the written word. Today we have Christians who don't believe portions of it, find it complicated, rather read something more trendy, or just want to say "it's a mystery" when they don't understand something rather than study the text. Mormons, JW's and others takes bits and pieces of scriptures and cobble them together to devised some theology. People are fascinated with new ideas but bored with dusty books. They rather attend seminars on having a godly home or financial planning with God rather than an analysis of John from various perspectives. Reading the church fathers is boring. Reading theologians are boring. Someone asked me the other day what I've been reading. I said the Psalms. They said, "Oh." Boring....

And this is what Satan wants. The farther he can drive a wedge between what God has told us and what we thought God told us, the better Satan likes it. He has been doing that ever since the Garden.

The farther one goes away from sola scriptura, the more they fall into the same trap other cults find themselves in-relying upon external source materials and moving away from the scriptures. That is why the early fathers insisted that ONLY the scriptures were infallible. All other materials is suspect. That view is not held in the Church today that considers their own writings just as important as scripture. A decree of Trent. But this was NEVER the view of the Church for the first 600 years. Jerome would be aghast.

In all honesty, the scriptures are not that complicated. We make them so.

While many today say they want to go to Hell, which was unheard of years past, yet very few think they are going there, or are content with that. Instead, they both sin and Heaven, and expect that.

Only one-half of 1% of of Americans in 2003 expected to go to Hell upon their death. 64% believed they will go to Heaven. 5% claimed they will come back as another life form, while the same proportion believed they will simply cease to exist. (http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/128-americans-describe-their-views-about-life-after-death)

In 1988, 77% of Americans rated their chances of going to Heaven as “good” or “excellent,” while19% rated them as “only fair” or “poor.” In contrast, only 6% said their chances of going to Hell was good or excellent, and 79% said their chances of going there was poor. (http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx)

From my interactions, most believe they will go to glory because they are pretty good, at least better than their neighbor (who think he/she is better than them), and often by faith in the power of Rome, if RC, or because they simply said a sinners prayer one time despite no lasting significant effects, along with an ambiguous idea of the mercy of God.

Orthodox Christianity (see thread title) recognizes seven ecumenical councils - the seventh was convened in 787.

Of course Holy Scripture is authoritative; but not Scripture alone. We believe the Holy Spirit directed the Bishops in their proceedings - just like it happened in Acts 15. They used their experience in the Christian life to inform the beliefs they put into words. The Holy Fathers were doers, not just talkers and debaters.

Otherwise, they would have just read Bible verses to each other.

Protestants need to be at least honest enough to acknowledge the source of the doctrine they embrace concerning, for example, the Holy Trinity. It is from the “one holy catholic and apostolic church”.

Again - I am not going to respond to questions and accusation directed at the Roman church.

Hmmmm....that's is an interesting point that I hadn't considered and believe you have a good point. How do religious non-Christians view their changes of going to heaven without God? One could take any religion that ever existed-certainly some of them today. They obviously believe they're bound for heaven. And there are numerous places in scripture where they thought their pagan gods would "save" them.

As far as my point about people not wanting to follow God, I think you're correct on that. Surely people want to follow SOMETHING if nothing more than a plastic idol. But that raises another question in my mind as to WHY do people replace God with something else? Why do they create idols? Not the idols of one's heart but actual idols? I looked through over 200 verses this morning that reference idols in scripture and it is a bit puzzling. I looked up some articles but haven't found anything yet. So this question will have to have some research. But the bottom line is, yes people believe they will be saved by gods that they create. They believe that they will go to heaven on their term.

Thanks for pointing out a flaw in my perspective. I enjoy conversations like these because it stimulates the old grey cells.

From my interactions, most believe they will go to glory because they are pretty good, at least better than their neighbor (who think he/she is better than them), and often by faith in the power of Rome, if RC, or because they simply said a sinners prayer one time despite no lasting significant effects, along with an ambiguous idea of the mercy of God.

I looked into this a bit today. For me to say that people “desire” to go to Hell is not correct. However, I believe it is correct to say that people deliberately do not wanting to follow God. I would refer you to Romans 1:18-25:

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

I thought “who hold the truth in unrighteousness” was an interesting statement. They know there is a God. They just want to have God on their terms-not His. As your statistics point out, most people believe in a heaven and they are going to get there-somehow. People create for themselves all sorts of justifications-their justification. This is the idolatry that Paul speaks of. It started with Adam telling God, “The woman that you gave me…”, and it has continued.

The answer as to why man worships actual idols begins with why we are idolators in the first place. The reason for that is that we are designed to worship, and will worship something/someone, either the created, which is finite and will fail, or God, who is perfect, eternal and cannot fail.

And He does not command worship of Him because He needs it, as He needs nothing, (Acts 17:25), but because it is right and what is best for man.

By asserting he would ascend to God’s place and be like Him, the devil was engaging in selfish self exaltation, trying to climb up some other way, being a thief and a robber. (Jn. 10:1) But overcomers/true believers will sit with the Lord in His throne. (Rv. 3:21)

“For every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. “ (Luke 18:14)

“The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. “ (Psalms 34:18)

Back to idolatry, whatever is our ultimate chief object of affection and loyalty, and or source of security, is our god, at least at that time, and most all of us make our flesh our god sometimes, in giving into sin.

As for physical idols, the lost, “having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart,” (Ephesians 4:18) thus yield to or create deceptions, and in their exchange of light for darkness, and as they are from this world, they seek to worship a god they can see, which is that of the created: “Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. “ (Romans 1:22-23) This includes worshiping mortals as uncorruptible God but who are not.

Note the sin here is not incarnation, but idolatry of heart which gives birth to a physical representation, and the worship of the finite false deities, as they walk by sight, and not by faith in the Creator of all.

It is significant that the Scriptures do not make Jesus physical appearance on earth the cause of true attraction, esp. on the cross, but His spiritual qualities, as He was not a mere man, but uncorruptible God manifest in the flesh.

On the other hand, in reaction against the making of idols you also have deception by those who insist God cannot be incarnated, as in Islam (which is reliant on Scripture but contradicts it), but which limits the omnipotent Holy One of Israel.

As for man believing they will go to heaven on their terms, this is easier when they are so deceived so as to think idolatry brings blessings, but which is due to God’s longsuffering, which is an invitation to repent, “not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.” (Rm. 2:4)

“But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil. “ (Jeremiah 44:17)

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. “ (Acts 17:30-31)

As for your old gray cells, yes, they do need stimulation as we get older.

The answer as to why man worships actual idols begins with why we are idolators in the first place. The reason for that is that we are designed to worship

...all true piety is worship. "Godliness is a worship," wrote Swinnock: Worship comprehends all that respect which man oweth and giveth to his Maker...It is the tribute which we pay to the King of Kings, whereby we acknowledge his sovereignty over us, and our dependence on him...All that inward reverence and respect, and all that outward obedience and service to God, which the word [sc,godliness] enjoineth, is included in this one word worship.

Owen's application of this is uncomfortably searching: Many of the better sort of professors are too negligent in this matter. They do not long and pant in the inward man after renewed pledges of the love of God; they do not consider how much they have need of them...; they do not prepare their minds for their reception of them, nor come with the expectation of the communication unto them; they do not rightly fix their faith on this truth, namely that these holy administrations and duties are appointed of God in the first place, as the way and means of conveying his love and a sense of it unto our souls. From hence springs all that luke-warmness, coldness, and indifferency unto the duties of holy worship, that are growing among us.

From The Puritan Approach to Worship by J.I. Packer

And He does not command worship of Him because He needs it, as He needs nothing, (Acts 17:25), but because it is right and what is best for man.

Back to idolatry, whatever is our ultimate chief object of affection and loyalty, and or source of security, is our god, at least at that time, and most all of us make our flesh our god sometimes, in giving into sin.

Idolatry is a worship, in which the honor due to the Triune God, and to God only, is given to some of His creatures, or to some invention of His creatures. J.C. Ryle

Psa 62:7 In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.