The difference between pre and post, is theory (pretrib) vs what the word of God actually says. I am a former pretrib myself (and not a superficial one, I might add, you are no more devout about it than I was), so I know precisely where you are coming from. Been there done that.
As a pretrib, I didn’t realize it, but I was reading into the scripture a theory of men. For instance, 1 Thess. 4, 5. I sincerely believed Paul was describing a pretribulation rapture, but where does it say that? It doesn’t, the word “tribulation” isn’t there. The same with a host of other passages pretribs regularly quote as describing a pretribulation rapture, 1 Cor. 15:50-54, etc.
Verse 54 (of 1 Cor. 15) was quite an eye opener for me. Paul said, “THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.” He was quoting from Isa. 25 (the saying that is written), which premillennial scholars everywhere agree is in a post-tribulational millennial setting.
THEN, he said, is when the resurrection takes place when the bodily change takes place, v. 50, 51. THEN is when the last trump sounds, v. 52. THEN is when death is swallowed up in victory. He’s talking about the rapture.
Paul obviously wasn’t a pretrib, for he applied a POST-TRIB resurrection from the OT to the rapture. of course, he wasn’t, pretrib hadn’t been invented yet, that came along some 1800 years later.
You charge me with not having any scripture support, you’ve got it backwards, my friend, it is you that has none. What you do have is lot of inferences. Which you guys read a pretrib rapture into.
Truth is, you have no scripture anywhere that sets forth a two phase second coming, the first secret, the latter a public one, that every eye shall see. If it were truth, on such an important doctrine as this - so important that you see the need of using the word “demonic” for anybody who doesn’t hold to your doctrine - we would surely see the two second comings clearly set forth. If it was there, we wouldn’t be having this disagreement.
Nice try, but no sell. Just like the birth of Jesus Christ can't be found anywhere in the book of Exodus, the Biblical fact that the Rapture will occur before the Tribulation can be found all throughout the Bible, not necessarily in the two passages you posted.
Truth is, you have no scripture anywhere that sets forth a two phase second coming, the first secret, the latter a public one, that every eye shall see. If it were truth, on such an important doctrine as this - so important that you see the need of using the word “demonic” for anybody who doesn’t hold to your doctrine - we would surely see the two second comings clearly set forth. If it was there, we wouldn’t be having this disagreement.
Really? There's no Scripture that tells us there are two phases to Christ's second coming? Let's see if you're right. Let's take a look at a few verses contrasting the pre-Trib Rapture to the literal second coming of Christ to earth.
Wait! There's more!
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.
"In passages that deal with the Second Advent there are signs or events that lead up to and signal the return of Jesus Christ (e.g., Matt. 24:4-28; Rev. 19:11-21). In each of these passages of Scripture there is the careful and extensive itemizing of details that should alert believers in that day that the Second Advent is about to occur. . . . On the other hand, there is no mention of any signs or events that precede the Rapture of the church in any of the Rapture passages. The point seems to be that the believer prior to this event is to look, not for some sign, but the Lord from heaven. If the Rapture was a part of the complex of events that make up the Second Advent, and not distinct from it, then we would expect that there would be a mention of signs or events in at least one passage." (See Paul D. Feinberg, "The Case For The Pretribulation Rapture Position," in Gleason Archer, Paul Feinberg, Douglas Moo, The Rapture: Pre-, Mid-, or Post Tribulational? p. 80)
"Second advent passages are invariably followed by talk of setting up the kingdom after the Lord's return (e.g., Matt. 24:31; 25:31ff; Zech. 14; Joel 3; Rev. 19-20). So, the second advent is preparatory to the establishment of the millennial kingdom. On the other hand, clear rapture passages give no hint that after the rapture the Lord establishes the kingdom." (John Feinberg, p. 198)
"It is very clear from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:51ff that at the rapture those gathered to the Lord will be glorified. On the other hand, second advent passages say nothing about anyone (living or dead) receiving a glorified body." (John Feinberg, p. 198) "Nowhere in the texts that deal with the Second Advent is there the teaching about the translation of living saints." (Paul Feinberg, p. 82)
Nowhere in the Second Coming passages is a meeting in the air mentioned.
Revelation 4-18 gives the most detailed account of the seven year Tribulation period. If the Church were to be in the Tribulation period, surely one would expect at least one reference to the Church in this time period. The Church, however, which is referred to nineteen times in the first three chapters of Revelation, is suddenly silent and never referred to in chapters 4-18. "It is remarkable and totally unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions for the Church to absolute silence about the Church for the subsequent 15 chapters if, in fact, the Church continued into the tribulation." (Richard L. Mayhue, Snatched Before the Storm, p. 8)
Nature of Tribulation centers on Israel. According to Daniel 9:24-27, the "seventy weeks" prophecy including the final "one week" (seven years) is for Israel ("your people"). Jeremiah 30:7 refers to the Tribulation period as a time of "Jacob's distress." "While the church will experience tribulation in general during the present age (John 16:33), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the great tribulation, the day of the Lord, and the wrath of God." (Ice and Demy, The Truth About The Rapture, p. 36)
"Passages such as 1 Corinthians 1:7; Titus 2:13 and Philippians 3:20 are applicable at this point. The believer is pictured as eagerly waiting and earnestly expecting the Savior. Watching for signs is entirely foreign to these passages. It never occurs. Not even once. Furthermore, not only is the believer to look for the any-moment return of the Lord, but he is to direct his life in the light of it (cf. Rom. 13:11-14; James 5:7-8; 1 John 3:1-3). If, on the other hand, there are specific prophesied signs, in reality we would not be looking for the Savior at any moment but instead should be watching for the revelation of the man of sin, the Great Tribulation, etc. There would be at least a seven-year preparation period." (Earl D. Radmacher, "The Imminent Return of the Lord," in Issues in Dispensationalism, pp. 264-65). "It is incongruous then that the Scriptures would be silent on such a traumatic change for the Church. If posttribulationism were true, one would expect the epistles to teach the fact of the Church in the tribulation, the purpose of the Church in the tribulation, and the conduct of the Church in the tribulation." (Mayhue, p. 9)
In this passage, Paul notes that the Thessalonians had been "shaken" and "disturbed" because they had been led to think that they were presently in the Day of the Lord (i.e. the Tribulation period). The fact that they were disturbed is significant. If Paul had taught a posttribulational rapture, the Thessalonians would have had no reason to be disturbed since they would be expecting signs and persecution before the coming of the Lord. Thus, they could joyously look to the soon coming of the Lord after the Tribulation. However, the fact that the Thessalonians were shook up indicates that they did not expect to be in the Day of the Lord.
So, yet again, you provide absolutely zero Scripture to support post-Trib Rapture mythology. But then again, you can't because that Scripture doesn't exist.
And by the way - if the Biblical doctrine of pre-Trib Rapture "came along" in the 1800s, then the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace alone and not by works "came along" in the 1500s.
I agree with you sasportas. The Bible supports us being Raptured upon Christ’s return and there is no lingering 7 years where people have another chance. The Bible is clear that the elements melt away upon His return; that doesn’t sound like anyone lives here anymore.