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Who Owns the Copyright to All Creation?
ConstitutionallySpeaking.Wordpress ^ | Jan 18, 2013 | ConstitutionallySpeaking

Posted on 01/18/2013 11:45:12 AM PST by patlin

John 1:3 tells us “all came to be through Him, and without Him not even one came to be that came to be”. In verse 4 we are told “in Him was life, and the life was the light of mankind”, therefore on the pashat, the literal level of the meaning of this passage, what this is saying is that His Word equals life for all mankind.

But now we must back up. Who created the Word? Who gave life to the Word?

Creation for we, the physical realm began ‘in the beginning’, in Genesis 1:1 but for the Father, creation began in His spiritual mind and thus the biography of mankind in the physical realm was born well before it came to be in the flesh. We see this kind of thing taking place in the physical realm daily. Let me explain.

An author writes a book and then some movie producer picks up on it and thinks to himself, ‘this would make a great movie’. And thus the 3-d version of the book is brought to life.

Now this begs the question? Who is the one who owns the original copyright of this book now turned into life, the author of the book or the movie producer who made it come to life? Do all royalties from the movie go to the producer or does the author still continue to own the original copyright and therefore reap royalties as long as the movie continues to sell?

Well today, sadly many authors sell out their right for a one time, looks good payment of money and then the movie producer is now at liberty to change, to take away or to add to the original text of the book. So is this also true of God’s Word? Did He sell His copyright to the Son so that the Son could bring life to all mankind in a way that seems right in the eyes of the Son? Two of the several witnesses in the Brit Hadasha testify to us as to whether or not this is true. John 10:18 “No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to receive it again. This command I have received from My Father”. 1Co 6:20 “For you were bought with a price, therefore esteem Elohim in your body and in your spirit, which are of Elohim”.

So as it is here, it continues as we read and study the Brit Hadasha. We see that the Son did not take liberties with the already conceived Word of the Father, but remained faithful to the original Word that was born in the Spiritual mind of the Father.

But this process of an original author and then later a producer is not just manifest in books and movies; it is evident in every aspect of our daily lives in the products we use. There is an original concept born in the mind of an inventor, a patent is then procured for that product and then the minute details are then given to a manufacturer who brings that patent to life so to speak. And while the manufacturer reaps benefits from the original patented product, the original patent still belongs to the one who gave birth to the concept of the product and thus the manufacturer is constantly subject to the original owner as long as that product is being produced by the manufacturer.

Now the same holds true for manufactured products as does the book. The original can be sold for a price thereby forgoing any and all future royalties of said product for a one-time payment in full for the patent to the product.

In 1 Cor 15:28, Paul reveals to us that the original copyright of creation has always remained with the Father, “And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all”. The Son, the producer, was and is always subject to the original book and at no time was the Son given liberty to add to or to take away from the instructions given in the original copyrighted book. This is evidenced to Paul in the words of the Son in Mt 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done”.

And this copyright ownership was not revealed just at this one time during the Sermon on the Mount, but it was also reinforced when it was repeated to John in the closing of His book of life, Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the heaven saying, “See, the Booth of Elohim is with men, and He shall dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and Elohim Himself shall be with them and be their Elohim … 7 The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Elohim and he shall be My son … 18 For I witness to everyone hearing the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to them, Elohim shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book, 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, Elohim shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and out of the set-apart city, which are written in this Book”.

Now notice the 2 distinct retributions, the former is punishment of suffering plagues and the latter speaks of those who diminishes His authority by diminishing His Word, he is the one who suffers eternal death. The one who says that this part or that part of His Book does not pertain to certain members of His creation should seriously, very seriously take heed these Words of His Book in Rev 22:19.

It matters not who speaks for the Father, the Son or we, the sons and daughters, the original copyright and its royalties have always remained with the Father and will always remain with the Father. Therefore, no one, no not one, not even the Son has ever had the liberty to make changes, to substitute one people for another, to release instructions when the Father had not released them, etc.

The Son, by the authority of the Father was granted the authority to shed His blood for our sins, therefore all royalties from that blood belong to the Father and what are the royalties? They are our lives, given to the Father through the Son by the authority of the Father given to the Son.

This is why we are told to ‘count the cost’. Are we willing to give, that is to subject our entire being to the Father according to the script of His Book that He revealed through the Son, the producer who has no authority to make even the tiniest of changes to the script or have we become partakers in the stealing of the script of His copyrighted Book by making changes to it that He did not authorize?

Who holds the royalties of your life? The true original owner who never relinquished those royalties or the one who first made himself manifest in the garden, the liar, the stealer of the copyrighted Book that originally belonged to the Father? As it was then, it still remains today, the lie continues …

“If you sin, if you eat that which He told you not to eat, you will not reeeally die”

There has been no greater lie told since the beginning of the production of His Book, as it was in the beginning, so shall it be in the end, a world that really has no end as His Book truly has no end, but concludes with a revelation of the eternal life to come that was promised to mankind the day He breathed life into them, the life being His Word that put on flesh. He knows all the characters in the 2nd production to come but we do not, and that is why we must all ‘count the cost’ and then upon taking the oath, the confessing of the Son, we are legally bound to the terms of the original copyrighted Book, just as the Son was lest we one day find ourselves in front of Him hearing these words,

Many shall say to Me in that day, ‘Master, Master, have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and done many mighty works in Your Name?’ And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’” [Mt 7:22-23]

So to reiterate the point, the Son’s blood was not a ‘one-time payment’ for all royalties on the original copyright so that we all now own the copyright therefore allowing us to go and do what is right in our own eyes. And to prove this we need only to revisit the words of Messiah in Mt 5:17 in their proper context of Mt 5:17-20.

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete. 18 For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done. 19 Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.”

The Father in the Son, the Son in the Father and the Son in us therefore, the Father in us as it has been from the beginning. The Son came to complete the production of His Father’s Book and therefore, there has been no breach of contract between the Father and the Son and if we are true to the Word, then there should also be no evidence of any breach of contract between We and the Father, the possessor of the original contract. This Book of the Father is still in the stage of production, therefore the contract between the Father and the Son is still valid.

Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness’ sake, because theirs is the reign of the heavens

As long as there is breathe in us, His breathe, it is never too late to exit ‘stage left out in the cold’ and return to His ‘stage of righteousness’. This is the plea of the Son. He wants us all in His production of His Father's Book of Creation, the Father's Book of Life!


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1 posted on 01/18/2013 11:45:15 AM PST by patlin
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To: patlin

You are trying to understand the Trinity. Too many people get themselves into trouble doing this. I would advise something simplier like eschatology.


2 posted on 01/18/2013 12:31:26 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Go ahead and try — it is mankind’s duty to try to understand the infinite Trinity with our finite intelligence even if, after a lifetime of trying, we only scratch the surface of this Mystery.

Knock repeatedly and doors will open.


3 posted on 01/18/2013 12:56:33 PM PST by 353FMG ( I refuse to specify whether I am serious or sarcastic -- I respect FReepers too much.)
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To: HarleyD

The Trinity is understandable. So is God’s plan of Salvation.

The Trinity is SO understandable, scripture says it’s part of General Revelation.

Read Romans 1:20.


4 posted on 01/18/2013 12:56:55 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: HarleyD

Romans 1:20
New King James Version (NKJV)
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,


5 posted on 01/18/2013 12:59:28 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: patlin

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall by no means enter into the reign of the heavens.”


Why can,t we just be shown the scriptures that will make us feel really good about ourselves?


6 posted on 01/18/2013 1:23:10 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: BereanBrain; 353FMG
The Trinity is SO understandable...

Oh brother....

Question: "What does the Bible teach about the Trinity?"

It never ceases to amaze me how people can think they have a complicated thing like the Trinity down pat when they can't even understand about the will of God and the will of man.
7 posted on 01/18/2013 1:27:34 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: patlin

Who Owns the Copyright to All Creation?


I know you are being serious...but on a light note, I am glad you asked. Sarajohnson is the owner of all creation. : )


8 posted on 01/18/2013 1:30:39 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson

LOL!!! And I bet your family knows it! :O)


9 posted on 01/18/2013 1:34:38 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Why, yes they do. ; )


10 posted on 01/18/2013 1:43:13 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: SaraJohnson

Steven Wright (Comedian) in a script from TV show “Becker” says it is Larry!

Ted Danson (Dr. John Becker): ... have you ever seen a psychiatrist?
Steven Wright (Boyd Crossman): ... well, it’s hard to say, it’s not like they walk around with big signs all day ...
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ted Danson (Dr. John Becker): ... what about drugs, are you on any narcotics or hallucinogens?
Steven Wright (Boyd Crossman): ... no, but if you think it would help ...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Ted Danson (Dr. John Becker): ... I happen to know one [a psychiatrist] and ah, I’m gonna give him a call, I think it will be very helpful for you to talk to him ...
Steven Wright (Boyd Crossman): ... well, I’ll do what I can, but frankly I have problems of my own ...


11 posted on 01/18/2013 1:57:20 PM PST by GOYAKLA (Waiting for the Golden Screw to be removed from Obama's navel and his a$$ falls off!)
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To: HarleyD
Um, no I am not trying to understand a relationship that humans are not equipped to understand. What I do understand is that we were created to serve Him, the Father and the Father alone as the Son served the Father alone.
12 posted on 01/18/2013 2:13:42 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: GOYAKLA

Thanks for the chuckle. : )


13 posted on 01/18/2013 2:15:39 PM PST by SaraJohnson
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To: 353FMG
As Scripture tells it, there is only 1 person as we know a person to be and that is the Son in the flesh. All the rest is beyond human comprehension, just as how He created everything is beyond human comprehension.

So, there are no 3 persons making a trinity, there is no God in 3 persons but here is God whose spirit gave life to the Son, His living Word through the ruach, the spirit of His breathe.

The trinity is the creation of the little ‘gods’ and their followers. It came right out of Babylon and remains with the religious entities that promote all that is Babylon,all that will be destroyed when the Son returns.

14 posted on 01/18/2013 2:19:24 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: BereanBrain
His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made

So how do religious entities that look nothing like it was originally created and revealed at Mt Sinai claim to be in His likeness? If as the Son says in the Gospels, if like kind begets like kind, can disobedience to the Father beget obedience and vice-versa? Is this not the common problem among all religions of man? Are they not trying to produce the good fruit of the Son with the bad fruit of His adversary?

15 posted on 01/18/2013 2:25:02 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ravenwolf
Why can,t we just be shown the scriptures that will make us feel really good about ourselves?

It's that, if we hide from our sin, then it really doesn't exit. No one wants to think of themselves as a sinner so then let's redefine sin according to man and leave out what the Word of the Father has to say on the subject by claiming that the Father rejected His chosen, so the Son was given some secret mission to start all over at His first coming.

Isa 30:20 Though יהוה gave you bread of adversity and water of affliction, your Teacher shall no longer be hidden. But your eyes shall see your Teacher.

Joel 2:23 And you children of Tsiyon, be glad and rejoice in יהוה your Elohim, for He shall give you the Teacher of Righteousness, and cause the rain to come down for you, the former rain and the latter rain, as before.

Mat 23:8 “But you, do not be called ‘Teacher,’ for One is your Teacher, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.

Joh 1:16 And out of His completeness we all did receive, and favour upon favour, 17 for the Torah was given through Mosheh – the favour and the truth came through יהושע Messiah.

Gal 3:24 Therefore the Torah became our trainer unto Messiah, in order to be declared right by belief.

The Torah given through Moses was the 'substitute' until the real Teacher arrived to teach us how to walk in righteousness as He is righteousness before the Father. The leader of the Father's choreographed musical of life, yet the children are still blinded to the choreographed steps the Son has given us to follow.

Did I forget to mention that the production the Son has been placed at the head of is an awesome musical like none that can be ceated in the minds of or by the hands of any man?

16 posted on 01/18/2013 2:46:13 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
What I do understand is that we were created to serve Him, the Father and the Father alone as the Son served the Father alone.

I guess then I'm missing the entire subject of the post "Who Owns the Copyright to All Creation?" I'm not sure what that has to do with serving.

17 posted on 01/18/2013 3:24:04 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

It never ceases to amaze me how people SAY they believe the bible, but when confronted with plain reading scripture, they reject it.

You don’t need the Reformation, Calvinism, Systematic Theology, or a Doctorate degree from the Seminary to be saved, nor to know the things of God.

The Disciples were NOT “learned” men, for a reason. They had not been “taught” the “right” way to think.

Romans 1:20 says that EVERYTHING you want to know about the Divine Nature of the Godhead, can be seen in the things God has made.

Do you believe Romans 1:20 or not? I do. If you take it on faith, God will speak to you through the General Revelation, and you will be privy to the truths of God’s nature. (This is the why nobody has an excuse for not “knowing” about God, and his nature). This is why people who grew up and NEVER heard the name Jesus can be saved, because God himself will give the faithful what they need to perfect their faith, just as Abraham’s faith was perfected, looking forward to Jesus (no, Abraham did not know that the Messiah’s name would be Jesus, or when/where he was born, but Jesus is the Lord of Salvation for all, OT and NT).

I believe in Sola Scriptura — no additional “points” needed. Nor Priest/Pastors that are Seminary trained are needed. The veil of the temple was rent. Jesus is our Priest, and he ministers to us directly. When we stop listing for the soft, quiet voice of God’s will and busy ourselves we lose contact with our Creator.

Like the Bereans, which were commended for searching the scriptures to see if what was being preached were true, WE the faithful should study and read the scriptures, putting more weight on the word of God than of man.


18 posted on 01/18/2013 4:36:28 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: patlin

It’s that, if we hide from our sin, then it really doesn’t exit. No one wants to think of themselves as a sinner so then let’s redefine sin according to man and leave out what the Word of the Father has to say on the subject by claiming that the Father rejected His chosen, so the Son was given some secret mission to start all over at His first coming.


You are right of course, but i like the preachers who for a little money will tell me what ever i want to hear.


19 posted on 01/18/2013 4:37:53 PM PST by ravenwolf
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To: HarleyD
I'm not sure what that has to do with serving

The the question is 'how are we to serve Him? What does it mean to serve Him? He did give us the conclusion to these questions in Ecc 12:13-14.

Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Elohim and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind! For Elohim shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil.

Now considering these words were spoke long before Messiah appeared on the scene in the flesh, there should be no question as to what commands He was speaking of. And if that is not enough, one only needs to go to Acts 7:37-39 to find out what they are.

20 posted on 01/18/2013 4:49:29 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: BereanBrain

The Trinity is understandable, but the trick is not to read into Scripture.

FWIW, there also are plenty of verses indicating all of Creation was made by the Son.


21 posted on 01/18/2013 5:19:49 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: patlin
Who Owns the Copyright to All Creation?

I don't know, but in the first Batman comic book the Toyman copyrighted the alphabet and nobody could use it without his permission.

22 posted on 01/18/2013 5:21:39 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: patlin
Who created the Word? Who gave life to the Word?

What an absurd question for anyone who considers themselves a Trinitarian.

In the beginning the Word WAS (John 1:1). Actually, that 'was' is in the imperfect tense indicating continuing action in the past i.e. at the beginning.

The word always was. Contrary statements are heresy.

23 posted on 01/18/2013 6:06:00 PM PST by newberger (Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.)
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To: patlin
Who created the Word? Who gave life to the Word?

What an absurd question for anyone who considers themselves a Trinitarian.

In the beginning the Word WAS (John 1:1). Actually, that 'was' is in the imperfect tense indicating continuing action in the past i.e. at the beginning.

The Word always was. Contrary statements are heresy.

24 posted on 01/18/2013 6:06:37 PM PST by newberger (Put not your trust in princes, in sons of men in whom there is no salvation.)
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To: patlin

I thought it was Open Source?


25 posted on 01/18/2013 6:08:18 PM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: BereanBrain
The Disciples were NOT “learned” men, for a reason. They had not been “taught” the “right” way to think.

I would suggest a more careful study of Paul's life. If you want to say "Paul was not a disciple" then perhaps a more careful study of other disciples as well. John was well known in the rabbinical community (it was he who got Peter into the inner court) and his mother was pushing for both James and John's success. Matthew was a tax collector so he must have know how to handle finances. Peter (along with James and John) ran a successful fishing business so much so that he owned a house.

Sorry but I don't buy that these disciples were just county bumpkins and neither do historians. Many of Christ's disciples were educated for their times and moderately successful just like any working stiff today. What they gave up for the cause of Christ was real and tangible.

But I would agree that they were not "taught" the "right" way to think. It is ONLY when God illuminate our eyes that we can see the truth. But God does not do this for everyone.

If you accept Sola Scriptura then there is simply no way of denying the clear teachings of Christ that some things are hidden from some people while God reveals them to others. It simply states this.

Romans 1:20 says that EVERYTHING you want to know about the Divine Nature of the Godhead, can be seen in the things God has made.

Romans 1 also states that although everything you wanted to know about God has been visible BUT even though THEY KNEW GOD THEY DID NOT HONOR HIM AS GOD OR GIVE THANKS TO HIM. So their minds become darkened. That is our nature.

This is why people who grew up and NEVER heard the name Jesus can be saved

This is a first. I suppose next you're going to tell me that good meaning Muslims who never heard about Jesus can be saved?

I believe in Sola Scriptura ...

If so then you need to remember...

And if you truly believe you don't need "professional" men instructing you, then I would suggest you recall Ezra:

Only the word of God is infallible and inerrant. While you may not want to take stock in other people's interpretations, I'd be careful to ensure that your own are not tainted. There have been many, many heretics who believed they were correctly interpreting the truth.

26 posted on 01/18/2013 6:10:30 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: patlin
I always use the following:

I believe that to be more specific as to what Christians should do.

27 posted on 01/18/2013 6:59:00 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
I believe that to be more specific as to what Christians should do

I do to, but the bigger question is, how does one define what it means to ‘walk humbly’ with ones God as there is no gate with the name of ‘Christian’ in the new Temple that comes down from the heavens. There are only 12 gates and upon them are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. (Eph 2:11-22)

28 posted on 01/18/2013 7:54:40 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
There are only 12 gates and upon them are the names of the 12 tribes of Israel. (Eph 2:11-22)

Gentiles are considered part of Israel:

And for those who simply cannot fathom that Gentiles are part of Israel, I would point out the salvation of widow Zarephath and Naaman. (Luke 4:25-27) Being a member of the 12 tribes is a matter of the heart-not a physical descendant.

As for which tribe we belong to, like everything else the 12 tribes of Israel were corrupt. God will reconstitute the 12 tribes. I don't mean to post such a long passage but it does explain it here:

How we are all graphed into the new 12 tribes of Israel I'm not sure. But if God can create the universe then I suspect it won't be difficult for Him to get us to stand is twelve lines. With our adoption comes placement into His family.
29 posted on 01/19/2013 3:59:28 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Paul was the ONLY learned of the Disciples. The others were common men, fishers and such. FACT.

Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. It’s by Him people are saved. So I suppose you can KNOW who knows and follows another person? It’s Jesus who determines who is saved, not us. Not by reading a book, or attending church, or doing good works. We should NOT JUDGE, especially the eternal things.

I wonder why Jesus never taught on the 5 points. And why the Church was “lost” until the reform....Obviously it was not, it’s just that hypercalvinist reforms measure all things by the Reformation not the Resurrection.

There is nothing wrong with studying the things of God. What is wrong is somehow creating a special set of structure other than what scripture teaches.
This was done in Jesus’ day, in the Roman Catholic Church, and the Protestant Church today.

As I stated earlier, the Disciples DID NOT attend Seminary. They didn’t speak in “Religious” terms.

As far as a Muslim being saved, he must not continue to place his faith in Islam, and listen to the General Revelation. If the man never met a Christian, God would give him all the information he needs to be saved. However, it is the PRIVILEDGE of a Christian to share his faith with such a one. We are God’s ambassadors.

One last point: Just about all the true men of God have been called Heretics and put to death. By the “Church”.

God is not interested in the corruption we have made of religion. He is interested in us, our souls and our hearts, our worship and our repentance. He is not interested in our works, or our sacrifices. They are rags to a perfect God. It is by His grace we are allowed to contribute to the Kingdom.


30 posted on 01/19/2013 4:28:07 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: HarleyD
I fully understand that we are grafted into Israel. Paul explains it very well in Eph 2 & Rm 11, so it puzzles me that the ‘church’ considers itself separate from Judah as Judah is but one tribe of Israel in which Messiah is the head of Israel, all of Jabob. (see Isa 49:1-6)

Paul also states in Eph 2:11-22 that once we confess Yeshua as Messiah, we are no longer gentiles, but fellow citizens of Israel and partakeers of ALL the covenantS of promise that were made from the beginning. We are equal heirs amd sons and daughters of the house of God.

The term ‘gentile(s)/nation(s)s’ simply means one is who not of God’s covenant, old or new, so this also puzzles me as to why the ‘church’ still considers itself Israel,other than the fact that the early church fathers were anti0semetic and hated everything Jewish because it did not fit their plan of growth for the church.

So if we are sons and daughters and are to be working on being transformed to look like the Son according to the path given through Moses, why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?

31 posted on 01/19/2013 5:50:08 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: HarleyD

Another point on the grafting in.

In the account of the Exodus & Wilderness journey we see a man named Caleb chosen as the one to lead the tribe of Judah. Caleb was not of Israeli blood, his father was a Canaanite. It was Caleb’s confessing Yahweh as God as Savior and following His Ways completely that deamed Caleb worthy to be called a ‘son’ and he was only one of two (Joshua being the other) of the original millions that left Egypt who actually entered into the promised land. These two represent ‘the remnant’ of the end days.

Narrow is the gate and few find it, Many are called but few are chosen. Why? Because it is easier to look like the ‘nations’ than to be ‘set-apart’ as to stand out from all others, including ones family which Messiah twice told us would happen so we must count the cost first. Are we willing to stand in the same position as Himself and all the disciples who were killed for standing steadfast in the covenant spoken at Mt Sinai by Yeshua Messiah to Moses. (Acts 7:37-39, Heb 3:7-4:13)


32 posted on 01/19/2013 6:04:47 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: BereanBrain
I wonder why Jesus never taught on the 5 points.

Hmmmmm.....

Total Depravity...

Unconditional Election...

Limited Atonement...

Irresistable Grace...

Preseverance of the Saints...

These are just a few of the verses. I wouldn't be so hasty to say such a thing. One of the things I've learned is that you cannot truly understand the book of John without understanding the TULIP.
33 posted on 01/19/2013 6:15:35 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Don’t forget the good Doctor, Luke.


34 posted on 01/19/2013 8:40:14 PM PST by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Cvengr

Good point. Along with Barnabus, Apollos, and Lydia. The list goes on.

I think we underestimate these wonderful people who sacrificed everything (including in many cases their lives) for the cause of Christ. Peter, James and John ran a successful fishing operation of which they tried to return to after Christ’s death. But in the end they heard the calling and gave up the security of their occupation to feed Christ’s sheep.


35 posted on 01/20/2013 2:45:18 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: patlin
...why the ‘church’ still considers itself Israel,other than the fact that the early church fathers were anti0semetic and hated everything Jewish because it did not fit their plan of growth for the church.

I'm not sure where you got your information (although this view does circulate among Catholics in particular). The early fathers were in fact Jewish fathers. These include Peter, James, John, Paul, etc. The first council (the Jerusalem Council) was comprised of Jewish fathers. When Protestants tried to figured out which books of scriptures were suppose to be included in the inerrant word of God, they went back to the Hebrew fathers for guidance. The idea that the earlier Gentile fathers were anti-semetics is nonsense. This comes from dispensationalists who attempt to discredit the idea that Gentiles have been grafted into Israel as is plainly stated in Romans 9. This is something early Gentile fathers taught as well as Paul.

Why does the church consider itself Israel? I can give you my understanding. The Israel of the scripture is a physical type for the spiritual church. It shows to the spiritual church all the good blessing of God as well as the consequences of sin. Part of Jewish believers (a remnant) made up Israel as well as Gentile believers (e.g. Caleb, Ruth, Rahab, etc.). This has been merged by God into the true Israel-the church, although there are still unbelievers (tares) within the framework of the church. It is not perfect-yet.

I believe the Old Testament to be woefully overlooked by today's church. These aren't "moral" stories but actual practice of living given to us by God. The OT acts of living are the doctrines of the NT put into the context of a living world. There are parallels between the physical Israel of yesteryear and the spiritual Israel of today.

why are we taught from the ‘church’ doctrines and traditions to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter is to look like and act like?

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you state that we are to reject everything that defines what a son or daughter should act like. And certainly most of the Protestants on this board would not agree that we are taught from "church" doctrines. We are constantly arguing about "sola scriptura" (scripture alone).

How we should act is laid out in scripture. Do justice. Love kindness. Walk humbly with God. Love God. Love one another. This is what defines us as sons/daughters of God. These are doctrinal values of the New Testament. How they are applied in the context of the living world can be found in the Old.

36 posted on 01/20/2013 3:25:49 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: BereanBrain; HarleyD
Romans 1:20 says that EVERYTHING you want to know about the Divine Nature of the Godhead, can be seen in the things God has made.

Absolutely.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

One of "things that are made" are us. In other words, the divine nature can be perceived in us, in our bodies. So what does that reveal about the Godhead?

The biggest thing that jumps out about the human body is duality.

Two halves of a body. Two ears. Two eyes, two nostrils. Two feet. Two hands. Two arms. Two legs. Internally we have right brain and left brain. Two lungs. Two kidneys.

Duality in the body. The same thing occurs in most of animal world. How about sexes? Two sexes, male and female. In nature TWO, or duality, is the overwhelming number seen in creation.

In scripture it's the same. In heavenly realm there is never a "person" in the Godhead named "holy spirit". There is the father and the son:

Dan 7:13 "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.
Dan 7:14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed.

Father and son. Two.

Heb_8:1 Now this is the main point of the things we are saying: We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

In the book of Revelation there are many visions of heaven. We can see the father and son sitting on thrones. Surrounding the thrones are a host of angelic beings. But nowhere is there a person referred to or called the "holy spirit" in heaven...in the Godhead.

So if we filter out religion the overwhelming attribute of divinity is two, not three. Our bodies and nature practically scream it. We ARE without excuse.

37 posted on 01/20/2013 4:20:57 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; BereanBrain
Father and son. Two.

Er....ok if that's what you believe but it is not scriptural.

Attributes of the Holy Spirit:

• He Teaches: John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. (NIV)

• He Testifies of Christ: John 15:26 When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. (NIV)

• He Convicts: John 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt [Or will expose the guilt of the world] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: (NIV)

• He Leads: Romans 8:14 Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. (NIV)

• He Reveals Truth: John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. (NIV)

• He Strengthens and Encourages: Acts 9:31 Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord. (NIV)

• He Comforts: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; (KJV)

• He Helps Us in our Weakness: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (NIV)

• He Intercedes: Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. (NIV)

• He Searches the Deep Things of God: 1 Corinthians 2:11 The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. (NIV)

• He Sanctifies: Romans 15:16 To be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

• He Bears Witness or Testifies: Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (KJV)

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. (NIV)

• He Forbids: Acts 16:6-7 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia. When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to. (NIV)

• He Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3 Then Peter said, "Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? (NIV)

• He Can be Resisted: Acts 7:51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit!" (NIV)

• He Can be Blasphemed: Matthew 12:31-32 And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come. (NIV)

• He Can be Quenched: 1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit. (NKJV)

38 posted on 01/20/2013 5:37:59 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; BereanBrain
Father and son. Two. Er....ok if that's what you believe but it is not scriptural.

Sure it is. The first disciples believed in the divinity of the father and the son. History and any good Catholic will tell you that the trinity doctrine was due to progressive revelation to their church. It was not official church doctrine until hundreds of years after the death of Christ.

That explains why Paul, in every letter he wrote that can be attributed to him, only sent greetings from the divine members of the Godhead, the father and son:

Rom 1:7 To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ,

Eph 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Php 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th 1:1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 1:2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, a beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Tit 1:4 To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.

Phm 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

This would be quite an oversight if Paul believe there was a person called "the holy spirit" in the Godhead. But he didn't believe this because he knew that scripture doesn't record it.

39 posted on 01/20/2013 7:20:51 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC; BereanBrain
Please review your references and theology. Paul taught the Holy Spirit endwelled believers (my quotes). There would be no need for Paul to say "Grace to you and peace from God our Father, the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit". This would not only be redundant but it contradicts Paul's teachings that the Holy Spirit indwells us and continuously imparts grace in us. The Father and the Son do not indwell us. Believers ALREADY have the Spirit and that Spirit is giving them grace and peace.

There are many quotes by Paul (as well as our Lord) referring to the Holy Spirit as a person:

Paul refers to the Spirit as a person and this person ("who") comes from God the Father. Paul signs off his letter to the Corinthians properly referring to all three:

Paul lists all three but more importantly Paul talks about the "fellowship" of the Holy Spirit. You can't have fellowship with some cosmic goo. That is precisely why Paul does not refer to the Holy Spirit in his greetings-simply because we already are experiencing fellowship with the Spirit and that Spirit is a "He" and a "WHO", not a "THING". You have fellowship with people.

This, btw, is WHY it is important to study the teachings of those who come before us as well as the scriptures; to avoid serious errors like this.

40 posted on 01/21/2013 3:19:18 AM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Do justice, love kindness, walk humbly, these are all results of obedience to ‘The Way’ spoken of in Ps 119:1,142,151,160 & Dt 32:46-47 that defines what Messiah was speaking of in John 14:6.

Yes, the fist leaders of “the Way” were Jewish, the 1st 50 and it wasn't until a gentile took the position that all was changed by the throwing out of what Messiah spoke and gave to us through Moses. They lived out Mt 6:10, ‘His will be done on earth as it is in the heavens’

Why do I believe that the religious systems teach differently? That is very clear in ALL their doctrines when they say because we are spiritual we do not have to obey what Moses wrote. Everything Moses wrote was about Messiah. the entire bible is about the Son who from the beginning in the garden, has been pointing and directing mankind back to the Father.

So why does the ‘church’ not practice this? Yeshua was rebuking the unbelieving Judeans, not because they searched the Scriptures, but because they missed the foundation that is taught in them, that foundation being it has ‘always’ been the Son speaking to mankind on behalf of the Father. He was stating to them that they had missed the point of Moses all together because their hearts were not grounded in the Messiah that Moses took all his dictation from.

So the way I see it, as it is the way Messiah taught it, we have to choices. We can follow Him as He follows the Father or we can choose to disobey and follow another that is not of the Father. One is Hebrew, the other is Roman as the anti-messiah rises out of Rome. If one is following all things that were put in place by the religious elite in Rome, can one truly know the Messiah? Scripture says not.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Elohim remains on him.

Those commands give us His calendar and all that defines how we are to walk out every aspect of our daily lives, including when and how we are to worship the Father.

The doctrines of the NT are not new, they have been since the beginning. Love, kindness, humility, etc, etc are the core foundation of all that was given through Moses and Moses is replete. Something most in the ‘church’ system do not know because they do not take the role of Berean seriously is that in Mt 19 when Yeshua is speaking to the rich man is the fact that when He cites the commands to follow, He is not citing them from Ex 20, He is citing them from Leviticus 19 & 20. How many even know that the commands are given again in Leviticus?

There is nothing new in the NT, it is all simply true of what was to be, was is, and what is yet to be. The Scriptures of the Messiah speak nothing of a ‘new’ religious system that is to be separate from Israel. that is to look and walk differently from Israel. But until one humbles themselves, that is to say repent and then begin walking in His ways, one will never gain the knowledge, understanding of that knowledge and the wisdom to implement it. That is what Messiah is speaking of in regards to John 5:39-40.

When we put man's ways above the Way of the Father, we are blinded in part by the stone of stumbling, the stone that came to remove the ways of man and to teach us the pure, unadulterated path to the Father. The stone that is Messiah that was with them throughout the entire journey in the wilderness. (1 Cor 10:1-14 (see specifically v. 4,6,9,11-12,14))

41 posted on 01/21/2013 8:38:08 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: HarleyD; DouglasKC; BereanBrain
Let's let Scripture define ‘Holy Spirit’ shall we? Is it a ‘person’ per-say?

John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

John 15:18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. ... 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, ‘They hated Me without a cause. 26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

John 16:12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority,but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

John 17:14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

The Spirit is ‘Truth’, so what is truth?

Ps 33:4 For the Word of YHVH is right, and all His work is done in truth.

Ps 119:142 Your righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and Your Torah (Law) is truth.

Ps 119:151 You are near, O YHVH, and all Your commands are truth.

160 The entirety of Your word is truth, and all Your righteous right-rulings are forever.

The Scriptures define the holy Spirit as Truth. It is referred to as an entity, but it is not a separate entity as all Truth belongs to the Father only who then gave it to the Son who in turn gives it to us. This is much like referring to the ‘church’ as a ‘she’ or ‘her’.

there is a Father and there is a Son, both of which have the same ‘Holy Spirit’ that comes from the Father.

John 17:22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.

John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and Truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth.”

Truth is not a person, Truth is the substance of the Father that was in the Son and is to be in us. If the substance of the Son is in all, then the Father's Truth will be shown in all, in all they say and do.

42 posted on 01/21/2013 9:13:37 AM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
Actually I agree with much of what you have written. Every commandment ever given to us by our loving Father has been for our benefit. This includes all of those commands in Leviticus including priests who should wear undergarments when climbing steps, inspecting houses for mold, and the rest. These laws and regulations were given to us to show to others our honoring of God, help us not embarass ourselves, and keep ourselves healthy. Some of these commands evolved; either by going away or turning into something else. That doesn't mean they aren't important to study for each and every one of them tells us something about God and how He cares for us.

But the study of the Old Testament also shows how the Israelites would constantly disobey the teachings and commandments. The generation that died in the wilderness for their rebellous heart, their children who went in to conquer the territory carrying their idols, and it wasn't soon after they settled in that they ceased to obey God. The laws in Leviticus states that God's wrath would go forth against a people who would sacrifice to Molech. Solomon built temples for that specific purpose. This was not surprising to Moses who prophesized:

I would not be so hard on the church since Israel NEVER followed the laws of God. It isn't that the laws are bad. On the contrary they are given to us in love and for our benefit. But they served to show that we simply refuse to keep them. This was true with Adam. It is true with us. (How many of us love our neighbors as ourselves?)

The true church, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Samuel, Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Paul, etc., are all people who are cut from the same cloth. They are those who were led by faith. It isn't that there is a Hebrew church or a Rome church. There is only one church. These are people who had failings in obeying God's laws. Noah got drunk. Abraham lied. Moses, David, and one could even say Paul were murderers. Yet they are also people who knew God in a personal and real way-because God came to them and revealed Himself to them. And that's the way God wants it to the praise of His glory. To call us, to know Him and let Him lead us.

Israel is not the church. The church is Israel. It always has been. That includes those obedient Israelites who believed in the coming promise and those Christians who look back to the resurrected Savior. They all realized their sins at obeying the Law and a need for God to forgive them and redeem them. If we didn't understand the Law, we would not understand grace.

43 posted on 01/21/2013 12:22:23 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; BereanBrain
The Father and the Son do not indwell us. Believers ALREADY have the Spirit and that Spirit is giving them grace and peace.

Rom_8:10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Verse 10 says Christ is in us.

And in verse 11 who raised Jesus from the dead? Whoever it is, Christians have HIS spirit dwelling in us too.

Gal_1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

The father raised Jesus from the dead. The spirit of the father dwells in us and the spirit of Christ.

In other words, the holy spirit IS the spirit of the father and the son...who ARE God. The holy spirit isn't a separate "person" at all, but it is the spirit of the father and the son.

Also history and any good Catholic will tell you that the notion that the spirit is another person besides the father and son is an "evolved" doctrine and wasn't fully developed until centuries after the death of Christ.

This, btw, is WHY it is important to study the teachings of those who come before us as well as the scriptures; to avoid serious errors like this.

It certainly is wise. But it's equally wise to be able to discern traditional teaching from biblical teaching. They're often at odds.

44 posted on 01/21/2013 6:33:44 PM PST by DouglasKC
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To: HarleyD
You have it all backwards. Yeshua did not come to form a ‘church’, He came to redeem His nation. The ‘church’ is a man made concept.

The ‘Torah’ was given for His nation to set them apart from all the other nations and grace came in because of man’s disobedience. First to Adam and then again on down the line all the way through the NT. But as Paul says, just because grace was given freely, that does not mean we are then free to disobey Torah. Paul delighted in Torah as did David. James called Torah perfect and liberty giving because through Yeshua Messiah we are no longer under the curse of the Torah which is death. That is what we were freed from, the curse not the Torah.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of Elohim that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, renouncing ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live sensibly, righteously, and reverently in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed expectation and glorious appearing of our great Elohim and Savior Yeshua Messiah, 14 who gave Himself for us, to redeem us from lawlessness and cleanse for Himself His own peculiar people, ardent for good works.

Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation.

There is not one place in all the Greek transcripts of the NT where the words ‘grace’ and ‘alone’ are used in the same passage, however, the words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ are used together just one time in all Scripture.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

And Paul agrees with this over and over and over again in all his epistles. Doing Torah evidences our faith, it is our fruit. No manifestation of works of Torah is equivilent to dead faith, BUT, because of grace one can not boast that one guaranteed a place in the eternal kingdom because grace is a gift givewn to all the world, not just a select few. One can not say that Elohim is indebted to anyone through their works. Yeshua Messiah is the ‘grace card’.

Faith evidences our receiving of that gift of grace through Yeshua Messiah and then we are to protect that gift so it is not taken away or lost due to neglect.

Now who is Yeshua Messiah? I have already given that answer, He is the walking talkiing Torah of Elohim that put on flesh to instruct us how to walk in all righteousness, to do what is right in the eyes of the Father lest we choose what is right in our own eyes that only leads one to death.

Deut 8:2 And you shall remember that the Lord your God led you all the way these forty years in the wilderness, to humble you and test you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not.

Deut 10:12 “And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, 13 and to keep the commandments of the Lord and His statutes which I command you today for your good.

Deut 32:46 and he said to them: “Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe—all the words of this Torah. 47 For it is not a futile thing for you, because it is your life,

Deut 29:14 “I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, 15 but<.u> with him who stands here with us today before the YHVH our Elohim, also with him who is not here with us today

Elohim is outside of time, when He speaks, He speaks to ALL generations of all peoples for all time. All the covenants build upon each other, one does not nullify another, they merely enhance what was previously given, therefore

Deut 33:4 Moses commanded us a Torah, an inheritance of the assembly of Jacob (All Israel, both native and grafted in)

Ex 19:9 And the Lord said to Moses, “Behold, I come to you in the thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with you, and believe you forever.”

John 5:46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

Mt 23:1 Then Yeshua spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever he (Moses) tells you to guard, guard and do (see Jn 14:15), but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.

45 posted on 01/21/2013 11:05:35 PM PST by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: DouglasKC

I think you are confusing the definition of the word “person” when used in reference to the Godhead, as it is different from the “person” used when talking about mankind. Sometimes a single word has multiple meanings (look in any dictionary).

Let me attempt to describe how there is harmony in the scriptures.

When you and I talk about an person, we are really taking about a man/woman. Now how does that person exist? He exists three-fold. That is, he/she exists a a physical being, a soul, and a spirit.

Do you remember God saying to Adam and Eve “in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.”? But did Eve die when she ate the apple? Yes. She suffered at that point spiritual death. We lost the ability to naturally commune with God because we are spiritually dead (we are no longer in the image of God, we are missing our spirit).

So mankind was originally designed a Triune creature, in the image of God.

Romans 1:20 says the entire creation testifies to God’s eternal nature and Godhead. So let’s take that verse as the truth that all scripture is, and amplify it.

Space exists in three dimension (X,Y,Z). If you have any less than 3 dimensions, your total volume of the universe would be ZERO. Once you add the third dimension (any will do), the volume of the universe is INFINITE.
Time exists as Past, Present, and Future. Without any of those three, could not exist.
Matter exists in three natural states (liquid, solid, gas), which itself is made up of protons, neutrons, elections.

Now consider that each of these “threes” Space, Time, Matter themselves add up to one thing, our whole universe!

Now to the word person, from the greek persona, which implied an appearence as in a mask an actor might wear on a stage. Not that God is trying to deceive, but that the same God appears to us differently.

Like in our universe, Height looks different than Depth, which looks different from Length — does that mean the universe is trying to trick us?
No, there is a difference, but the SUBSTANCE is the same, and each is infinite.

So when I die, and my body is gone, I still exist, at least my soul does, until I receive my (new) glorfied body, and my new spirit.

For now, I am stuck in this old decaying body, with my eternal soul, with a dead human spirit, but am counseled and indwelled by the Holy Spirit, by who I am made alive again.

Without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, my soul would continue to wither and corrupt itself. But with the Holy Spirit, it will renew my mind (soul).

So this is my defense of a true understanding of the Trinity.

No, I am not a “oneness” person. Oneness believes come from trying to understand God by human reasoning like “how can three things be one thing?”. God create the WHOLE UNIVERSE as three in one. That’s what Romans 1:20 implies.

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter; to search out a matter is the glory of kings.


46 posted on 01/23/2013 8:47:58 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain
When you and I talk about an person, we are really taking about a man/woman. Now how does that person exist? He exists three-fold. That is, he/she exists a a physical being, a soul, and a spirit.

I think it's important to define these so there's no misunderstanding in further discussion. The best way is to look at a verse that mentions the creation of man.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This is the King James version. First God makes man (the physical). Then he breathes life into him. Then he BECOMES a living soul.

Let's start with "soul". Scripture says that man BECOMES a living soul.

"Soul" is the hebrew "nephesh". It means a living, breathing creature. This isn't the first time it's used in scripture though. The first time is here:

Gen 1:20 Then God said, "Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens."

"Creatures" is the same word translated "soul". The next three verses also use the word and translates it "creature" . It's meaning here is any kind of animal that lives and breathes, including man as we see later. It apparently doesn't extend to the plant world.

So biblically a "soul" IS any creature that lives and breathes. It doesn't become a soul until it is alive and sustained by the spirit of God.

We're not talking about the holy spirit here that indwells in Christians, but about the spirit of life, given from God, that makes everything alive. When that spirit is withdrawn things that were alive die.

That's because there is nothing immmortal about our soul. We are only a soul because the spirit of God sustains us. When that breath of life is withdrawn, we die. We cease to be a soul.

Note that man does not become alive in any sense until God breathes life into him. Up until then he's a dead, inert, hunk of perfectly formed flesh.

The life that God breathes into him is his spirit. It's the same spirit that keeps everything living on earth alive. It's the engine that keep everything physically alive.

BUT when that spirit or breath leaves, living things die.

Gen 6:17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die.

Do you remember God saying to Adam and Eve “in the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die.”? But did Eve die when she ate the apple? Yes. She suffered at that point spiritual death. We lost the ability to naturally commune with God because we are spiritually dead (we are no longer in the image of God, we are missing our spirit).

I think scripture means exactly what it says here. Adam and Eve had an abundant supply of God's spirit that not only kept them alive, but overcame corruption and death. When they sinned, they lost access to that abundance and had only the same breath of life common to all creatures. When they sinned, they literally began to die that day. It was a slow steady march to death, but it was real, physical death that was inevitable and predicted by God.

So mankind was originally designed a Triune creature, in the image of God

I would agree that he was designed in the image of God because of the duality built into the physical world including our bodies, genders and relationships. But based on scripture there was no thought of building "three" creation. Space exists in three dimension (X,Y,Z). If you have any less than 3 dimensions, your total volume of the universe would be ZERO. Once you add the third dimension (any will do), the volume of the universe is INFINITE.
Time exists as Past, Present, and Future. Without any of those three, could not exist.
Matter exists in three natural states (liquid, solid, gas), which itself is made up of protons, neutrons, elections.
Now consider that each of these “threes” Space, Time, Matter themselves add up to one thing, our whole universe!

In this case I think you've repeated a conclusion that seems logical but is based on fault or non-provable suppositions.

For example matter can exist in 4 or 5 states depending on the application. Plasma is usually considered the 4th state.

Protons and neutrons are now thought to be made up of quarks or perhaps even smaller elements.

Time is an uknown element full of speculation especially when it comes to perception of past, present and future.

The universe is thought to be made of many many dimensions, most of which we're not capable of seeing.

So to my understanding it's not clear and obvious to get "three" out of nature and use it prove the existence of a triune God. However as was shown in a previous post, 2 screams out at us.

47 posted on 01/24/2013 6:28:40 AM PST by DouglasKC
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To: DouglasKC

Plasma is NOT a state of matter at rest. It exists ONLY in so much as you keep pumping energy INTO a gas. As soon as you stop injecting a foreign substance INTO the gas, the plasma decays to gas. FACT.

Again, it determines what you mean by the word STATE. I mean it in the strictest (and might I say original) sense.

The fact that components are made up of individuals does not matter either. As I demonstrated, many “threes” are “threes” inside of threes.

You are MISSING the design of the universe.

There is no DUALITY of the Universe. Only in Star Wars, and Taoism is there a duality of nature/universe.

In Gen 2:7 you see the three components of Man right in front of you — body (formed of dust), breath (spirit) and Soul.
Mankind does not exist in the same way birds or other forms of life do, and as such you cannot compare animal life to human as animals were NOT created in the image of God.

Again, just because a word (like Napesh) is used in several places does NOT mean it means the SAME thing each time. The word “set” has 464 DIFFERENT meanings in an unabridged dictionary! Strong’s has multiple definitions as well, and Strong’s is at best a poor analysis of the depth of meaning of each word.

There are THOUSANDS of proofs of how the nature of all things are three.
How about LIGHT? Any color of it is comprised of Red/Green/Blue.
FIRE? It needs oxygen/fuel/heat any less and it does not occur.
WATER? it’s H20 (two hydrogen, one oxygen)
ELECTRICAL CHARGE - Positive/Negative/Ground or 0 or rest (depending on whether your local ground is floating will determine what is rest)
FAMILY - Husband, Wife, Child
EARTH- Land/Air/Ocean
DNA - Phosphate/Deoxyribose/Nitrogen Base

check this out. http://www.icr.org/article/2590/


48 posted on 01/24/2013 3:33:21 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: HarleyD

HarleyD,

I challenge YOU to look for verses that CONTRADICT your beliefs about the 5 points.

For example, Limited Atonement. Could I make a suggestion? Look for verses about the will of God. For example that none should perish.
Or try John 3:16 or Romans 5:8

God has the RIGHT to have created vessels (man) for destruction. This is what scripture says. It also says we have no right to question his will or motives. What it also clearly says is that God’s will is that NONE should perish and that he LOVED the WHOLE world so much he sent his only begotten Son.

God’s gift is Salvation...It is NOT his FORCED WILL upon a robot. So GRACE is RESISTABLE. Look in Romans chapter 1 — what happens to people who continually reject God? He leaves them to their own devices — is this not having resisted Grace?

As far as total depravity, we are depraved, but we long for something different. There is a God shaped whole in our heart. A hole is NOTHING. ZERO. Which is also what we can accomplish on our own toward salvation.
We have to GIVE up and let God save us....This is NOT the same as the traditional Total Depravity point, but similar.

Lastly, I revere John, and Paul and all the other disciples teaching because of the way they lived and died after Jesus...the way they treated their enemies (or people who wanted to be their enemy). Now read about John Calvin and how he handled his opponents. He could have spoke out and spared their lives. He did not (google Michael Servetus)

So it you want to defend the 5 points via scripture, how do you handle the scriptures that contradict your points?

If you are truly interested in the truth, you must examine the whole scripture, and we know scripture cannot be broken, so then, if there exist a theory (like the 5 points) that does not agree with a scripture, therefore it MUST be wrong.

Unless of course, you place more trust in “Institutes” than the “Holy Bible”


49 posted on 01/24/2013 3:51:42 PM PST by BereanBrain
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To: BereanBrain
What it also clearly says is that God’s will is that NONE should perish and that he LOVED the WHOLE world so much he sent his only begotten Son.

God's will is that all will be saved, and that is precisely what will happen unless you believe that what God wants to happen can be stopped by one of us puny humans. Every believer who is saved is just as God ordained it.

Yes God so loved the world that He sent His only Son. But read the rest of the text.

God sent His Son into the world KNOWING that man hates the light because our deeds are evil. Christ's coming exposed our evil heart and brought judgment onto the world.

God’s gift is Salvation...It is NOT his FORCED WILL upon a robot.

God never forces anything on anybody. He only reveals Himself to us just like He did with Moses or Paul. With each Christian He comes to us directly and tells us to "Follow Him". By HIS power WE willing drop what we are doing and follow Him. If you think this is wrong just ask yourself the question do you think Christ saved you? Please note the order of those words. I know of no Christian who would say otherwise.

As far as total depravity, we are depraved, but we long for something different.

We don't long for anything different. There is no where in scripture that states this. Man's history throughout the scripture shows that we are rebellious towards God. As John 3:19-20 shows that Christ came just to show us how evil we are. When staring love directly in the face, man ends up crucifying Him. That is our nature.

Now read about John Calvin and how he handled his opponents.

Well that may be true. But David committed adultery with Bathsheba while Uriah was off fighting David's battle and then tried to cover it up by murdering the honorable Uriah. This in my mind was far worst that what John Calvin might have done. Would you complain about David or dismiss his life as well? Calvin also started over 250+ churches as well as writing works that are still in use 500 years later. As David correctly pointed out, whatever sins we might create, ultimately all sin is against God and that's His business.

You can't judge believers based upon particular instances of their lives. I always find the Book of Kings very interesting. It always starts out with "This king did what was good in the sight of the Lord" or "This king did what was evil in the sight of the Lord". Then it goes into their life story. In some cases the good kings might have done some bad things. In other cases evil kings might have done some good things. But God does not look a single instances of our lives (thankfully). In fact, for believers He doesn't look at our lives at all but Christ's life.

Perhaps that is why we shouldn't judge one another.

BTW-I don't place my trust in the Institutes. Rather I would suggest meditating on Cyprian's question, "What do you have that you have not received from God?" Answering that question will help understand where Calvin was coming from.

50 posted on 01/25/2013 6:52:01 AM PST by HarleyD
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