Posted on 02/01/2013 6:01:52 PM PST by ebb tide
I apologize for my vagueness. My intent was to question whether you believe Blessed John XXIII and Paul VI were validly elected Popes.
I only asked it directly once, but called it into question at least twice.
To be mistaken doesn’t make one a liar.
I don’t know the GIRM to be “screwed up.”
I trust the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, led by Cardinal Arinze.
“I only asked it directly once, but called it into question at least twice.”
You did not. Pride is also a sin. Keep it up, you’re on a roll.
It took three editions of the GIRM, over a period of 40 years, to finally translate “pro multis” correctly. Something any first year Latin student could do immediately.
This is not a minor point. These were the very words of Jesus Christ at the Last Supper, and in the name of VC II’s ecumenical emphasis on downplaying EENS, those words had been deliberately mistranslated for almost half a century.
As I stated before, I truly believe your sincerity in your beliefs. However, somewhere along the pilgrim trail, you appear to have been detoured to schismatic beliefs.
As a reminder, Mgr. Lefebvre acted against the expressed orders of the Holy Father more than once, begining in 1976 (http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_one/Chapter_12.htm).
He was later suspended a Divinis (22 July 1976
Notification of Suspension a Divinis). In the words of Pope Paul VI (through the Secretariat of the Congregation for Bishops), whom you acknowledge was Sovereign and Supreme Pontiff:
“... it is with great sorrow that the Holy Father resolved to take this disciplinary measure, because of the scandal caused to the Christian people by your obstinacy, after so many fraternal attempts to turn you from the blind alley in which you are proceeding. His Holiness cherishes the hope that you will again reflect on this, and he begs Our Lord to inspire you with the resolve to re-establish as soon as possible your communion with him.” (http://www.sspxasia.com/Documents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Apologia/Vol_one/Chapter_12.htm)
In charity, is this the path you wish to follow? Do you wish to follow those who would flagrantly disobey the Holy Father?
Please also reflect upon this one passage from the Apostolic Letter “ECCLESIA DEI” of the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II Given MOTU PROPRIO, 2 July 1988 (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/motu_proprio/documents/hf_jp-ii_motu-proprio_02071988_ecclesia-dei_en.html)
4. The root of this schismatic act can be discerned in an incomplete and contradictory notion of Tradition. Incomplete, because it does not take sufficiently into account the living character of Tradition, which, as the Second Vatican Council clearly taught, “comes from the apostles and progresses in the Church with the help of the Holy Spirit. There is a growth in insight into the realities and words that are being passed on. This comes about in various ways. It comes through the contemplation and study of believers who ponder these things in their hearts. It comes from the intimate sense of spiritual realities which they experience. And it comes from the preaching of those who have received, along with their right of succession in the episcopate, the sure charism of truth”.(5)
While I welcome continued dialogue, and the most recent moves toward reconciliation, I urge you, as a brother in Christ, to put aside schismatic beliefs and attitudes, and attune your heart, mind, and soul to the rightful teachings of the Holy Father and the Church founded by Christ.
“While I welcome continued dialogue, and the most recent moves toward reconciliation, I urge you, as a brother in Christ, to put aside schismatic beliefs and attitudes, and attune your heart, mind, and soul to the rightful teachings of the Holy Father and the Church founded by Christ.”
Which Holy Father? Pope St. Pius X or Paul VI? Because the latter certainly contradicts the former. As a matter of fact, it was the latter who abolished the the Oath Against Modernism established by the former, a true and holy saint.
P.S. What makes you think I attend SSPX masses? I attend the FSSP masses.
You have libeled me numerous times on this website, yet you are too prideful to apologize for anything except “vagueness”. Vagueness needs no apologies; lies do. However, by your past behavior, I expect no sincere apologies from you. I do hope you do otherwise in the confessional.
My initial response was to post 32 and it was because nowhere in it was “ex cathedra” implied.
Pope Paul II was not speaking “ex cathedra” when he said the Jews covenant with God was still valid. The Holy Ghost prevented him from stating this “ex cathedra”.
You at best have a vivid imagination, at worse ?????
How have I defamed you?? How have I harmed you, ridiculed you, or tarnished your reputation?
Regarding which Holy Father, there is only one at a given time.
My incorrect assumption, for which I humbly and graciously apologize, was based on the substance and tone with which you have written against Paul VI, and the Second Vatican Council. I was wrong in assuming.
The reigning Pontiff has certain prerogatives. We know that Benedict XVI lifted the excommunication of the 4 bishops ordained by Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, levied by Blessed John Paul II.
It is also consistent that one Pope may relieve a requirement made by another Pope, as we have seen throughout the centuries, especially regarding the norms of receiving Holy Communion. Specifically, the period of fast, as well the frequency with which one may receive.
It is heartening to hear you are not suffering in schism. God be praised!
Please consider, however, how you speak of the Servants of God, our deceased Pontiffs. While you may have disagreement with specific issues from a given period, those men were called by Our Lord to serve His people.
Such are men, imperfect. As you mentioned, Peter, our first Pope, denied Christ Himself 3 times! However, we don’t condemn Peter. Perhaps criticisms of Popes is best left in private quarters, so as not to give the appearance of disunity.
May we continue to thank God for His ocean of Mercy and His willingness to have us as His Children.
If you re-read post 32, you will see 3 key words: Infallibility, faith, and morals.
You will also see how those three words are clearly and specifically linked to the term ex cathedra.
From the Catholic Encylopedia:
The phrase ex cathedra ... its present meaning was formally determined by the Vatican Council, Sess. IV, Const. de Ecclesiâ Christi, c. iv: “We teach and define that it is a dogma Divinely revealed that the Roman pontiff when he speaks ex cathedra, that is when in discharge of the office of pastor and doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding faith or morals to be held by the universal Church, by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that therefore such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves and not from the consent of the Church irreformable.” (See INFALLIBILITY; POPE.) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05677a.htm
“How have I defamed you?? How have I harmed you, ridiculed you, or tarnished your reputation?”
You have called me schismatic numerous times, you lied and said I refused to answer a non-existentent question three times. That’s libel.
And you are still too prideful to admit it.
Well, when you speak like a schismatic, you are likely to be called on.
When you criticize a Sovereign Pontiff and criticize duly called and order Vatican Council, you appear schismatic.
When you call me a liar, when I admitted a mistake is not charitable. Please also see Post 48 where I state:
“My incorrect assumption, for which I humbly and graciously apologize, was based on the substance and tone with which you have written against Paul VI, and the Second Vatican Council. I was wrong in assuming.”
Who has the more pride, the one who criticizes Popes and bishops, or the one defends the clergy?
Are you more Catholic than Blessed John XXIII? Are you more Catholic than Paul VI?
Consider those statements when you sit on your Papal throne, wearing your Papal tiara and judge the work of the past.
I have suspected it for a while, but now I know I’m either speaking with a teenager or a very delusional adult. I know what “ex cathedra” means and you definitely never implied it in your post.
Pope Paul II spoke about faith and morals at Assisi’s I and II, in synagogues, in the churches of heretics, etc., but thanks to the protection of the Holy Ghost, he was not speaking “ex cathedra” and thus not “infallibly”.
And, “No,” we cannot ignore past holy and sainted Popes when current Popes contradict them in Faith, e.g., EENS.
“Are you more Catholic than Blessed John XXIII? Are you more Catholic than Paul VI?”
I certainly hope so! To this day I fearfully pray for their souls. They’ve done so much damage to the Immaculate Bride of Christ.
“Who has the more pride, the one who criticizes Popes and bishops, or the one defends the clergy?”
tuTu,
Do you defend Cardinals Mahoney and Law? Bishops Weakland and Bernadin? Bishop Reggie Cawcutt of St. Sebastian’s Angels, etc?
You seem to be condemning me to the ranks of St. Paul, St. Athanasius and St. Catherine of Sienna. Thank you for the honor.
Do you find God so weak and confused that he would allow a mere man, of human nature alone, the power to destroy His Church?
The same Church he promised the Gates of Hell would not prevail against.
Do you find God so confused that he would instruct the Holy Spirit to inspire Cardinal electors to vote for this man who ostensibly had the power to destroy the Church?
We have been discussing the Bishops of Rome, so let’s stay on the subject. While you are right to bring up Bishops who strayed from their vocations and criticize them, there is a fine line. Also, although a Bishop by rank, the Pope enjoys the special blessings of the Holy Spirit and the universal Church.
Finally, I would never condemn Sts. Paul, Catherine, Athansius, or any saint for that matter. I am not presumptuous enough to consider myself in their league.
While we live in difficult times, with relativism, egoism, and the Enemy running wild, Our Lord will never abandon His Church. Tougher times have been had. We should be grateful we have not been to called to witness as martyrs.
We are blessed to live in a time of struggle, where our faith is called upon daily, even hourly, to strengthen us. We must stand strong against the horror of abortion, the decay of morality, and the destruction of the family.
Can we sustain our fight when arguing about which Pope is best, and whether Communion in the hand is valid? Can we sustain our fight when trying to one-up each other in knowledge or virtue?
You are right, pride is a terrible sin, and all succumb to it. Let us rally together, encouraging each other, to fight the Enemy. Let us work to present the face of Christ to all we meet.
Stay strong in your quest for virtue and Truth. Be confirmed in your desire to serve our Lord. May the sublime mysteries be made simple and your lot increased.
Pax tecum!
“Do you find God so weak and confused that he would allow a mere man, of human nature alone, the power to destroy His Church?”
I am a Catholic, in full communion with the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. In answer to your question, I believe Almighty God to be both omnipotent and omniscient.
Unlike God, you are not omniscient. So please cease with your insulting, juvenile questions and/or insinuations about my faith.
Pax out
You have painted yourself in a corner.
In Post 40, you said:
“Has there been a single ex cathedra statement since the proclamation of the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception?”
I believe you were implying the answer is, “No”. If not, please list subsequent “ex cathedra” statements. If you can’t, please drop the infallibility canard about the post-conciliar popes.
My larger point in this discussion is what obedience/respect is due to the Pope and his brother bishops?
Are we obliged to only follow dogma? Are we obliged to follow the teachings of the local ordinary?
What obedience can be expected?
In my opinion, we must be obedient in dogmatic teachings, the observance of the liturgy, observance of Obligations put forth, and general teachings of the Church.
In some cases, such as capital punishment, we are not required to share the same view as the Church, but should seriously take its opinion to heart.
On the other hand, say cohabitation, no dogmatic teaching is necessary to know it is unacceptable.
In relation to this entire discussion, I have questioned your position related to the article. I have called you out on your general attitude to the Holy Father and his predecessors.
I have also stated that your general attitude creates division.
Finally, why would you, a faithful member of the Roman Catholic Church, post an article by Dici, the communication agency of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X, and then support it??
Do you consider Dici and its writings positive in the nourishment of your soul? Do you consider their writings positive in promoting Christian unity?
Do yourself and others a favor: distance yourself from SSPX and don’t promote their schismatic positions.
“Finally, why would you, a faithful member of the Roman Catholic Church, post an article by Dici, the communication agency of the Priestly Society of St. Pius X, and then support it??”
It’s not just Dici.
Check this:
http://www.cfnews.org/page10/page83/paul_vi_beatified.html
And this:
http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350426?eng=y
The SSPX is no longer a lone voice in the wilderness. Rather, yours is becoming one. People are sobering up, why don’t you. Pull the wool off of your eyes.
“My larger point in this discussion is what obedience/respect is due to the Pope and his brother bishops?”
Answer: That which is due him and them, respectively.
What obedience/ respect would you give Bishop Reggie Cawcutt if he asked you to bend over a pew?
You need to draw the line. One you can’t seem to delineate.
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