Posted on 02/07/2013 9:58:27 AM PST by Alex Murphy
Absolutely. If a man wanted to fabricate something like a "Lentin" celebration, this ought to be the thing at the top of the list to "give up"...his heart, his pride, his arrogance. Yet, even this can be granted only by God. (Jn 3:27, ICor 4:7) We only stand because He is able to make us stand.
Of course I do, and don't call me shirley. ;o)
However, I was not "expanding" so much as commenting on the article posted from the Catholic Herald and taking it to its logical conclusion. It stated:
That sounds to me like man's acts of "penance" are what make payment for sins - not for just his own but for the "sins of the world". I know that this "reparation" is thought to be for the "temporal" punishments due for sin that are not satisfactorily remitted in this life and to alleviate this punishment on those in Purgatory. This goes back to the Catholic dogma of the "Treasury of Merit" and the Communion of the Saints that make indulgences possible.
The treasury of merit consists of the superabundant merits of Christ, as well as the merits of the saints; the treasury of merit is one because of the communion of saints in the Body, Christ being the Head. The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches the following about the treasury of merit:
Merit cannot be transferred, but meritorious acts can make satisfaction for another, by giving to God a gift of greater value than what was taken by the sin. This is how Christ’s own actions in His passion and death made satisfaction for the sins of the whole world. (See “Catholic and Reformed Conceptions of the Atonement.”) But it is also the way the meritorious acts of the saints can make satisfaction for others’ debt of temporal punishment. St. Thomas writes, “All the saints intended that whatever they did or suffered for God’s sake should be profitable not only to themselves but to the whole Church.”
The Church, by the authorization of Christ, and through the communion of saints, can draw from the one treasury of merit and satisfaction to reduce or remove the debt of temporal punishment for anyone united to the Body through sanctifying grace. And that is just what an indulgence is:
I reject the whole idea that somehow man's minuscule deprivations such as is offered in the idea of giving up something "for" Lent can EVER be thought of on the same plane as the once for all sacrifice of Christ on the cross. I reject that mankinds' feeble, and mostly manufactured, sacrifices can be held in a semblance of a bank account and credited to another's account through the actions of others to lessen their penalties for sins that HAVE already been paid in full and no longer held against the child of God.
The storing up treasures in Heaven Jesus spoke of somehow got twisted to imply that some people just have an overflow of treasures there and their surplus can be shared with others to help them get there sooner out of the holding cell of purgatory. Of course, this place does not exist, but that's a discussion for another time. The whole idea negates the sufficiency of Christ and contradicts a great many Scripture passages. If the acts of men can make ANY reparations for sins at all, then it is the same thing as saying the blood of Christ is not enough. I DO know better and I hope you do as well.
Your conclusion ridiculous. You're being facetious or scurrilous.
I don't know why you'd spend so much time trying work-up such a dumb view and attribute it to Catholic doctrine. A waste of time unless someone really likes twisting other's views.
I think you wasted a lot time on this. If your taking it to its logical conclusion leads to "Jesus didn't have to die on the cross.
Your conclusion ridiculous. You're being facetious or scurrilous.
I don't know why you'd spend so much time trying work-up such a dumb view and attribute it to Catholic doctrine. A waste of time unless someone really likes twisting other's views.
It seems you have taken great offense from my stated views. That's too bad, I thought we were getting along for a change. However, they are neither dumb nor ridiculous nor facetious, scurrilous or twisting. Pretty harsh words to use against someone you merely disagree with, by the way. I take great offense at those who would try to minimize or negate the tremendous sacrifice of Jesus Christ on that cruel cross for the sins of the redeemed by presuming whatever sacrifices of men, small or large, in any way help out or ameliorate what Christ has already paid in full. That was the gist of my point. Whatever time it took up doesn't matter if someone at least read it and it helped to shine the light of truth upon a manmade ritual that has deceived many away from the grace of God that brings salvation. I'll gladly do it again if needed.
Oh please: you take offense with something that doesn’t exist, created in your own mind.
You know a bit of honesty in debate helps.
You’re positing that Catholic theology says Christ’s sacrifice is unnecessary; that Lent replaces the Cross. This is just garbage. On its face.
As if a Catholic theologian should reply either:
- Son of a gun! We didn’t notice it, but ole BB points out this huge mistake we made! What a genius!
or:
- Oh my! We’ve been trying to keep this a secret, but ole BB found us out! We’re doomed!
You seem to think the Church is either dumb as rocks or evilly hiding a subterfuge.
Or your post is massively ignorant or scurrilous or, I think, both.
Oh, I agree most heartily, honesty in discussions more than helps, it is a requirement. That's why I initially posted about my views of the last sentence of this OP. To remind you, it said:
On the other hand, many saints and Church Fathers attest to the spiritual effectiveness of penance. It keeps our focus on God; it is reparation for our sins and the sins of the world.
Now, if you are saying this doctrine "doesn't exist", then fine, I gave you the chance earlier to disavow the statement the author made that such a view was attested by "many saints and Church Fathers". I also quoted the CCC that basically said the same thing WRT Purgatory and indulgences, which this idea of penance and its connection to the Lenten period is based upon.
Here's the point, D-fendr, if anything men do can make reparations for their sins or others - and let's be clear about that word "reparations" which means indemnification, atonement, satisfaction, compensation - it certainly DOES minimize the atonement Jesus Christ made for sin by his horrible death on the cross. I didn't say it says Christ's sacrifice is "unnecessary", but just not enough, not sufficient. It ties back to the invented dogmas of Purgatory and indulgences which have NO Scriptural basis and which have perverted the gospel of the grace of God.
I certainly don't expect the Catholic Church to make ANY changes to their doctrine. It has been demonstrated many times that the magesterium, once it has proclaimed a dogma, will seldom admit error and readdress a claim. What I do hope is that individual Catholics might realize that they are being deceived and reject the false gospel that tells them they cannot have assurance of their salvation because it is reliant upon themselves and their actions rather than by grace through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. My eyes were opened, others can be as well.
I didn't say it says Christ's sacrifice is "unnecessary", but just not enough, not sufficient. yada yada yada. Not quite that, just this, but that, then this other thing.
Yeah, right. "Yes, but.."
Either Catholic theology missed an obvious error or is evilly inclined. Or..
Your posts show an ignorance and desperate need to trash the Church somehow no matter how ridiculous the means, whatever twisting it takes.
Those who truly wish to know the Church can read the Early Fathers, St. Athanasius, St. John Damascene, the Councils, Sts. Ambrose, Jerome, Aquinas, Augustine, John OTC..
If they wish to learn of Christ in His Church in a more recent writing, they can read Jesus of Nazareth by Pope Benedict. I strongly recommend this book for all Christians in these times.
Here, they can see Christ Our Savior, His Church - as from the beginning with His Apostles down to today, and learn what the Church really believes and teaches.
Or, alternatively, they can take their information from a internet poster named boatbums.
Only Jesus already did it, has done it, and will do it again when I see his face and he knows me.
Yes it just took one sacrifice but God does not do human time.
THIS is my time of dying, and it is not marked on a church calendar.
Psalm 22
Isaiah 53
hey, if you want to disparage those who give up the pleasures of the flesh while you don’t, ok, that’s your choice, right?
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