Posted on 02/09/2013 1:44:37 PM PST by NYer
I will stick to identifying saints based on biblical teaching and not some man made dreamt up stuff.
You say that you call the Bible man made dreamt up stuff?
That those who are saved by God's grace aren't saints in your works?
It means a hypocrite
I am not going to argue with you Cronos, you already know where I stand. I grew up thinking catholics and christians were the same thing, but I realize now they’re not.
Actually, whichever faith you belong to may not be Christian. HAve you thought of that?
Knock it off. You’re BOTH Christians. You both believe in Our Risen Lord. You both have Faith in Him that He is the key to your salvation. One of you believes that good works come before salvation while the other believes that good works come after it; fine, you both believe that faith requires good works lest it be no living faith at all. You both believe that we must sincerely repent of our sins.
You both believe that there are saints in heaven and that a saint need not be officially canonized to be a saint. Yes, you both differ regarding the particulars about what is appropriate regarding saints — having been on both sides of that debate I can tell you forthrightly that insofar as you argue about that you’re talking past one another as there are two different paradigms at play. You can’t change someone’s paradigm by bashing them over the head.
The only one who takes delight in squabbles such as this is the devil himself. He gladly takes joy in using viciousness among Christians to destroy the faith those who are not strong. Christ would prefer, insofar as you both claim to follow Him, that you show each other a bit of charity for their sakes.
“A new commandment I give unto you: That you love one another, as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this shall all men know that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.”
I believe in the bible, I have the NIV and new king James versions. Simple enough for me.
I believe in Jesus Christ, who IS the Living Word.
If you say instead you believe in the Bible, so do people who:
So "simple enough"?
I prefer to put my trust in Jesus Christ, 100% man and 100% God, one with the Father and the Holy Spirit, co-eternal.
nice of you to say that MWS, but that is not conveyed in bulwyf;s posts -- I grew up thinking catholics and christians were the same thing, but I realize now they’re not. or his first, This is just a sect pretending it still has rule over man. -- I doubt stating such beliefs is Christian, more like "one who takes delight in squabbles such as this is the devil himself."
Cronos, I certainly hope it did not appear that my post was solely directed at you. If it did, I apologize — everything I said was for the both of you.
While I’ve never met either of you before, I’m sure you’re both great guys. You both love Our Lord Jesus Christ enough to get worked up over differing theological perspectives; while I believe it is misguided and unfruitful to fight over matters which, as much as we might be loathe to admit at times, are impossible to truly resolve here on earth due to the limitations of our weak and sinful human minds. I personally believe that Christ loves you both, not because both of you are right (which is, indeed, impossible), but rather because you both care so much for His cause. I don’t presume to speak for Christ but I am sure he wishes you could see that in each other!
Cronos, what you said you said because you are obviously frustrated with some Protestants around here, perhaps with good reason. Bulwyf, what you said you said because you are obviously frustrated with some Catholics around here, perhaps with good reason. After reading the polemics that are slung by both sides around this forum I cannot say that I blame either of you. What I post here has less this less to do with the exchange between you two than it does with my concern for the Catholic-Protestant dialog we see around here. Both sides seem focused on slinging barbs in order to score rhetorical points as though Christ wants us to participate in some sort of schoolboy brawl for His sake. Having been in and read plenty such debates myself I can attest how they invariably unfold — each side makes sharp rhetorical points regarding straw men of doctrines it barely understands, each side becomes entrenched in a sort of siege mentality to defend itself against what are ultimately unfair allegations, members of both sides cheer on their own guys as though they were members of rival gangs watching their enforcers duke it out, and both sides leave convinced that they were in the right and that the other side is a bit less Christian than they had imagined before.
I stand by that comment, by the way, that neither side really understands each other. Most Protestants have deep misunderstandings regarding what Catholics believe about the Pope, about saints, about the Virgin Mary, about the Eucharist, about the Magisterium, about the title “Mother of God”, and an assortment of various Catholic beliefs. But I will offer that Catholics have just as deep a misunderstanding regarding Protestant beliefs regarding Sola Scriptura, the role of tradition in the Church, Salvation by Faith Alone, the number and role of denominations (most of those “tens of thousands” of denominations that Catholics often reference fall under larger denominational umbrellas and the broad majority of Protestants believe that Christ’s Church is composed of all denominations and not simply their own), the Protestant understanding of the canon of Scripture, the role of Martin Luther, and a host of other Protestant beliefs. I’ve studied Catholicism, Protestantism, and Orthodoxy to a great extent and have felt drawn to all three. In all three I’ve seen the same core beliefs (The Nicene Creed, the Athanasian Creed, etc.) — the differences all lie in beautiful yet very much human understandings of those beliefs and the differing externals which proceed from those different understandings. For example, some view Baptism as a sacrament that conveys grace and signifies an entrance into the Church while others see it as an ordinance which symbolizes and confirms a believer’s place as one of God’s Elect. Are we not agreed, at least, insofar as we believe baptism is something which ought to be done? Whether salvation precedes baptism or comes after it is quite beside the point; the point is that we baptise. The rest is the result of human attempts to understand a Divine Mystery. The understanding can be wrong yet the intent can still be right, and it is the intent that matters.
When I read these discussions, however, it becomes painfully obvious to me that neither Catholics nor Protestants understand what each other believe, nor are very many willing to enter actual discussion to obtain a deeper understanding than is offered by the polemical works that inform their arguments. We argue to puff ourselves up, to make our side look good and the other look bad, and at the end of it all we walk away and say, “I sure showed him... what an idiot.” Such arrogance! We are using that which is of Christ to puff up our own sinful Pride — what could be more devilish than that? What can be said for us when we use Christ as a tool to bolster our opinions of ourselves while lording it over others and putting them in their place? It is one thing to correct one’s brother out of Christian love... but who here can really say that is what they are doing?
Love is not always “nice”, but you cannot claim to love someone you treat with contempt and words of hate, especially when you know that your “corrections” are meant more to make yourself look good and them bad rather than to really set them right.
Thank you for that - it shows the true spirit of Christ in you. Disagreeing over theology is one thing, but if a supposed Christian says “you’re not Christian, that’s it” as in Bul’s posts, well, that pretty much ends any chance of a discussion
Thank you for that - it shows the true spirit of Christ in you. Disagreeing over theology is one thing, but if a supposed Christian says “you’re not Christian, that’s it” as in Bul’s posts, well, that pretty much ends any chance of a discussion
Even back then, there were many hundreds (thousands, even?) of canonized saints, most of whom almost nobody ever heard of. One of the failures in Catholic education (IMO) is in ignoring all but the most 'famous' of them. Some places are remedying the problem. A good thing, again IMO.
Amen, brother!
Ah, you praise me too highly, but insofar as I’ve said anything good all glory belongs to Christ... all I can do by my own efforts is strew straw among the gold.
May God grant that we give more gold and less straw in our discussions around here!
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