Skip to comments.Explain how the church wasn't born until Pentecost if the believers were already saved pre-Pentecost
Posted on 02/11/2013 8:32:29 AM PST by Laissez-faire capitalist
If those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost (the 120 who assembled together before they spake with tongues on the Day of Pentecost, and before Peter preached his sermon) were already saved, were believers, had seen him ascend to heaven, etc, and the Body of Christ (the church) then must already have been in existence before the Day of Pentecost.
Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn't formed or "born" until the day of Pentecost?
Was the church just halfway outside the womb pre-Day of Pentecost? Did it have to wait until the Day of Pentecost to be born? How???
This is in response to some answers (and email) to the previous thread that I posted concerning this topic.
The believers were saved before the Day of Pentecost, thus constituting the body of Christ, yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t formed until the Day of Pentecost?
Halfway outside the womb until that day?
Judaism: Constant temporary atonement for sins
Catholicism: Constant temporary atonement for sins
Judaism: High Priest
Judaism: Salvation by works
Catholicism: Salvation by works
Take your pick. No gospel found in either case.
Salvation is atonement
Church is fellowship
Seems like the Church wasn’t formed until the Holy Spirit came to guide it forever. Remarkable growth and consistency from a start of 12.
Didn’t you get enough answers last week?
Judaism: No bacon
With the greatest respect for my Jewish brothers and sisters, I choose Catholicism.
Yashua was the Comforter while on earth. He did say He would not leave us alone but will send another comforter to be always with you - The Holy Spirit. You come to Yashua through the Comforter, the Holy Spirit. The progression was continual.
What is “The Church”? Isn’t “The Church” the people of God, the people whom the Lord has called to Himself? If so, “The Church” began back with Abraham, when God first made a covenant with Man.
Okay let's clear one thing up right off the bat: No one is saved or damned until the moment of death. Up until then no one knows for certain.
Second you are forming in the womb for nine months before your actual birth. You are not half out of the womb are you?
“Would someone please explain, then, how the church wasn’t formed or “born” until the day of Pentecost? “
No one permanently was indwelt by the Holy Spirit. No one was baptized by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ, which comprises the Church of all believers of all time. Until that moment, there was no Church.
Jesus Himself had already said the only entrance to the Church was through Baptism and Jesus Himself said that He was building the Church upon “this Rock”. What more do we need?
Pentecost helped the Church grow rapidly but it had nothing to do with the organization of the Church.
This is not a subject I have ever before contemplated. I certainly haven't worried about the salvation of those who personally associated with The Lord, I have a feeling they are well taken care of.
I received dogma, but no proof.
It was generally agreed that the believers were already saved before the Day of Pentecost, and that believers are those who constitute the Body of Christ.
Given the aforementioned, no one explained how the believers constituted the body of Christ), yet the church (the body of Christ) wasn’t born until the Day of Pentecost.
They parsed words and issued dogmatic statements yet did not explain how it was yet wasn’t yet was on the Day of Pentecost. Like it was nebulous yet in a state of pre-existence - like it was semi-solid.
Why yes. Yes you did.
Were those who assembled on the Day of Pentecost already believers (saved) before that Day arrived?
2/5/2013 | Laissez-Faire Capitalist
Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 8:54:39 AM by Laissez-faire capitalist
Many saw Jesus ascend into heaven on the Mount. Before this, Jesus told them to tarry in Jerusalem where they would be endued with power. Not many days afterwards, on the Day of Pentecost, tongues of fire appeared above those who had assembled together, and they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Now, a question that I have asked more than one person is this: were those who spake with tongues saved (believers) before the Day of Pentecost or before the moment they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance?
If these believers were already saved before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance, then this means that one does not have to speak in tongues in order to go to heaven.
Secondly, this means that their speaking in tongues was a separate, subsequent, distinct act from them becoming part of the body of Christ, as they were already saved - believers (and thus a part of and the formers of the body) - before the Day of Pentecost, and before they spake with tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.
Third, this means that the body of Christ (made up of believers) was already formed before the Day of Pentecost.
Again, were they already saved before the Day of Pentecost? It seems to boil down to that question...
What is THE distinguishing mark of a NT believer in Jesus Christ?
It is the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The OT saints did not have this permanent indwelling as Jesus told the apostles in the upper room that this ministry and presence was still future. "He will be with you and will be in you ... forever."
That indwelling did not begin until Pentecost ... therefore, the church started at Pentecost.
I really don't understand why this fella keeps posting this rubbish ... as if there is some huge theological problem that is being discussed here.
Israel and the church are distinct, in bible prophecy and historically.
One, look at the transfiguration.
Two, Jesus, after his death and subsequent resurrection, broke the gates of hell, releasing those held therein. The patriarchs were not saved until after Christ’s death and resurrection.
The biblical quote for this is Ephesians 4:9.
“Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the “lower parts of the earth?”, ie Hades and Sheol.
Just my observations on the continuity between dedication of Solomon’s temple and the NT church:
Old Covenant temple - priests were consecrated prior to dedication of the temple, including ritual washing, particularly of hands and feet, sacrifice of spotless offerings and grain/bread offering, consecrated priests and 120 priests bearing trumpets. During the ceremony, the glory of God filled the temple.
New Covenant church - disciples were “consecrated” prior to pentecost, by footwashing, wine and bread sacraments and crucifixion of Jesus, presence of disciples and 120 other followers in the upper room. While present in unity and singular purpose, the Spirit of God filled the new covenant church as though baptizing with tongues of fire.
God is consistent in His actions. Pentecost was as important for the new covenant church as the dedication of Solomon’s temple was for the Hebrew nation.
In the Church the atonement for sins is Christ's salvation. The High Priest is Jesus Christ who is present at every Divine Liturgy (Mass) in the form of the Eucharist
And no, Salvation in the Church comes from Christ it is not from your works
There's no gospel or Christ in your beliefs, right?