Posted on 02/13/2013 4:44:23 AM PST by spirited irish
You ask a person if its raining and they spend hours and days and months telling you everything but the actaul weather, well, something is up.
Sorry for the repost, but you’ve got to read this:
First, I don’t set the standard, God does. His Holy Bible is clear on ex nihilo creation, there is pre-Genesis matter being worked on. That doesn’t destroy the majesty, power and wonder of His creation. It just means it wasn’t, as recored in the Bible, ex nihilo.
Reading it again will help:
Here’s Genesis 1: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm and 2: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-2.htm
Young’s Literal Translation makes it clearest:
In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens and the earth — the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
That’s verse 1 and 2 from Young’s Literal. It is obvious now, no?
The Biblical text states clearly that the earth in its void/formless/empty state was there to be worked on already. It’s existance doesn’t undermine the power, authority or majesty of God.
His first act is contained in Gen. 1:3. He tames chaos/disorder by immediately declaring light. There are a lot of great scientific attributes of light that make this beginning so amazing. There are also wonderful religious metaphors for light, not the least of which is joy.
So enjoy yourself, God and His Holy Word.
First, I don’t set the standard, God does. His Holy Bible is clear on ex nihilo creation, there is pre-Genesis matter being worked on. That doesn’t destroy the majesty, power and wonder of His creation. It just means it wasn’t, as recored in the Bible, ex nihilo.
Reading it again will help:
Here’s Genesis 1: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm and 2: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-2.htm
Young’s Literal Translation makes it clearest:
In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens and the earth — the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
That’s verse 1 and 2 from Young’s Literal. It is obvious now, no?
The Biblical text states clearly that the earth in its void/formless/empty state was there to be worked on already. It’s existance doesn’t undermine the power, authority or majesty of God.
His first act is contained in Gen. 1:3. He tames chaos/disorder by immediately declaring light. There are a lot of great scientific attributes of light that make this beginning so amazing. There are also wonderful religious metaphors for light, not the least of which is joy.
So enjoy yourself, God and His Holy Word.
It is useful to keep talking, only if you’re able to be taught. Otherwise, you’re wasting my time and wearying me.
This is my last post on this thread:
First, I don’t set the standard, God does. His Holy Bible is clear on ex nihilo creation, there is pre-Genesis matter being worked on. That doesn’t destroy the majesty, power and wonder of His creation. It just means it wasn’t, as recored in the Bible, ex nihilo.
Reading it again will help:
Here’s Genesis 1: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-1.htm and 2: http://bible.cc/genesis/1-2.htm
Young’s Literal Translation makes it clearest:
In the beginning of God’s preparing the heavens and the earth — the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
That’s verse 1 and 2 from Young’s Literal. It is obvious now, no?
The Biblical text states clearly that the earth in its void/formless/empty state was there to be worked on already. It’s existance doesn’t undermine the power, authority or majesty of God.
His first act is contained in Gen. 1:3. He tames chaos/disorder by immediately declaring light. There are a lot of great scientific attributes of light that make this beginning so amazing. There are also wonderful religious metaphors for light, not the least of which is joy.
So enjoy yourself, God and His Holy Word.
English Standard Version (©2001)
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
International Standard Version (©2012)
In the beginning, God created the universe.
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
In the beginning God created heaven and earth.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
American King James Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
American Standard Version
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Douay-Rheims Bible
In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.
Darby Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
English Revised Version
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
World English Bible
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning of God's preparing the heavens and the earth —
One out of 17 ain't bad I guess.
But it still begs the original question, this formless Earth, where did it come from. Speculate if you need to.
I got it the first two times, including the one where you told me it was important and to read it again.
But thanks anyways...
But one will have to forgive a lowly cretin such as myself if I am not swayed by the words of one who themselves will not speak for what belief system they stand for, nor speak as to what they base the ability to remove ignorance from us ignorant (and obviously petulant) rubes.
I know its silly but if some one wants to “remove my ignorance” i would like some basis on which to assure myself that they are not actually making it real...
But one will have to forgive a lowly cretin such as myself if I am not swayed by the words of one who themselves will not speak for what belief system they stand for, nor speak as to what they base the ability to remove ignorance from us ignorant (and obviously petulant) rubes.
I know its silly but if some one wants to “remove my ignorance” i would like some basis on which to assure myself that they are not actually making it real...
I don’t like the religion of Mormonism, but I live the homosexual “religion” even less, so Mormonism succumbing to the gay mafia is not good in my book
Let’s see, first you self-righteously reject the words of men (Church Fathers) and then you hypocritically apply your favored interpretation, pre-existent matter, an ancient concept secretly revealed by disembodied, malign intelligences to MEN, not God.
It is not that Our Lord did not create ex nihilo but rather that proud, willful men who prefer pagan concepts, i.e., of a limited deity and pre-existent matter, reject Truth in preference of the Lie.
It’s 17/17. Gen. 1:1 isn’t any action, it’s an introductory statement. Read the Hebrew here: http://biblos.com/genesis/1-1.htm
The Hebrew indicates forming, shaping, creating, but from an existing item. http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/1254.htm
53 verb shape, create (compare Arabic probably loan-word, form, fashion by cutting, shape out, pare a reed for writing, a stick for an arrow,....
In the beginning is simply placing it at the start of the Biblical narrative, not just of Genesis, but the entire Masoretic text.
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/7225.htm
So every example you give is the same thing and none of them imply an act of creation at that moment. It starts in Gen. 1:3, but the introduction of Gen. 1:1 is followed by what God had to work with and what state it was in, see Gen. 1:2.
As to where the pre-Genesis matter came from the Bible doesn’t say and neither will I. Clearly, God is capable of creating anything at anytime.
One interesting item to consider is how increasingly precise measuring instruments have destroyed the concept of “nothing”. In math we think of nothing as a null set, but when measuring the presence or absence of a physical item the fineness of the measurement is what counts. For a long time zero held, then we developed the technology to more precisely measure and nothing became something.
I am in no position to judge you or any man or cretin. I believe in and stand for the Bible. It is the only tool I’ve used to shed light on a Gospel topic. It’s valuable, but I’m not responsible for it. Jesus Christ is. Your argument is with Him and His Word.
I am not self-righteously rejecting the words of the “Church Fathers”, just your interpretation of them and pointing out the limitations of human thought and perception. Feel free to accept what they said, but read their words direclty. They’re available online. The earliest Church Fathers don’t confirm either ex nihilo creation or the modern conception of the Trinity.
As I said earlier, believe what you want to believe. I simply used our common belief in the Bible to discuss your misconception about the creation story. I presume you’re Catholic. I commend your appeal to authority and understand it. Withouth authority and without a Priesthood of God you’ve got paganism, i.e. self-worship. It’s the warning contained in the first four of the Ten Commandments. Outside of Catholicism and Orthodoxy churches are tyrannies of democracy and anarcho-Christian in outlook where parishoners choose their own god. That’s wrong, unBiblical and unChristian.
We’re warned over and over again against these false teachers who would alter God’s word. That said, any reading of the Bible at nearly any point will show that apostasy is the standard form for humanity and that God is always working to bring people back to him. Moses took apostate Israel out of Egypt. The prophets throughout worked against apostasy. Jesus ministered to apostate Israel and they were certain that they had the truth.
What you see is that apostasy is the steady state. Those in majoritarian control rarely have the truth and yet there is always a remnant remaining, working miracles, preserving the ordinances and maintaining the Gospel. That’s the story of the Bible. Take a look.
“This is my last post on this thread:”
So along with the fact you refuse to acknowledge your own Church, you refuse to give any substance to your qualifications on spiritual matters you also say one thing and do another.
And you ask me to look to you to clear any ignorance you think I have?
Really?
My Church? Christ’s
My qualifications? I am a polymath, lead by the Light of Christ and His Holy Spirit with the same qualifications as Jesus’ followers throughout all time.
When have the learned doctors of the Old or New Testaments ever been with Him?
Am I asking you to look to me to cure your ignorance? No, absolutely not. That’s why throughout this discussion I’ve referenced only God’s Holy Word. Reason and faith are all you need to set your path straight, but it is a narrow path and easily missed without a child’s open mind and faith.
Really? Yes, really.
Many places claim to be Christ’s Church. Many of them are, and more than a few clearly are not despite their best efforts at verbal and spiritual gymnastics.
It is more than interesting that you so avoid naming your Church specifically and have done so for some time. It is rather an easy thing, people do it every day. One asks of another “What Church do you attend?”, the other replies “Methodist” or “Catholic” or “Baptist” or even “LDS” without all the cute replies and coy answers.
Such actions scream that SOMETHING is up.
As it is you seem to claim no more basis of authority or education than any of the rest of us give or take, so you will excuse us if we take your claims of “teaching us” and exposing our alleged ignorance, especially in light of all the cute games lo these many months with more than a few grains of salt.
A great polymath such as yourself who holds such knowledge and understanding can comprehend our dilemma...
“throughout this discussion I’ve referenced only God’s Holy Word...”
Spirited: A limited deity that emerged over time out of self-generated or so-called pre-existent matter is not holy. And no matter how often one communes with it, it cannot respond because it cannot think, speak, or move since it is a nature deity.
From the Babylonians, Sumerians, Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Upanishad Hindus, Luciferian Theosophists, high degree Masons, dialectical materialists, Joseph Smith/LDs, and occult spiritist New Age, the worship of matter is a constant. All of these nature systems have exchanged the truth about God for the Lie of matter worship (Romans)
1010RD does not understand Paul’s meaning in Romans. If he did he would see that Paul is describing not just the Epicureans, Stoics, etc. but LDs as well.
If you really seek the living, supernatural Holy Word then you must repent of matter worship and seek Him in communion with true Christians. Doubtless ejonsie would gladly help you in this.
Exactly and few know of the doctrine, hence the need to read God’s Holy Writ. There are those more concerned with “credentials” than with the Bible.
Instead, look to Christ’s example. Which Apostle was a trained theologian? What wages were the Apostles paid? Christ’s Church, if it exists on earth in our day, must follow the plan he set out, not the ideas of men.
What bothers you most is the clarity of the Bible itself. It stands in contradiction of what you want to believe; what you want to be true. You’re unable to refute what you have seen demonstrated because you know it is true, as true as the Holy Bible and God’s own Word. Concentrate on that. Pray on that. Ponder it in your heart and mind.
Stop thinking about anything else. All is fleeting, but the Kingdom of God and His Will be done. Take care, FRiend.
Avoidance can be an effective defense mechanism, yet aren’t Gen. 1:1-3 as presented to you not a part of the Holy Bible?
Is it not clear that they speak, clearly and directly, against creation ex nihilo?
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