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To: daniel1212
minority dissent mentioned is irrelevant

24 million is a healthy minority on Christology. The salvation by election branch is likely as large as the Arminian... Baptism? Lutheran or Baptists? Real Presence in the Eucharist?

And we are only talking about congregations and confessions, not even counting all the individual sola scriptura beliefs.

God will sort out the tares from the wheat.

What false belief does this exegesis not excuse?

405 posted on 03/16/2013 11:01:57 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; Lera; CynicalBear; ...
And we are only talking about congregations and confessions, not even counting all the individual sola scriptura beliefs.

You keep trying to use the fact that there are divisions and disagreements under SS besides unity in core beliefs, while under sola ecclesia and in Catholicism itself you have the same, the difference being a matter of degrees, while unity under the means of implicit assent to infallible church magisterium is not that of Scripture.

Even Arminans and Calvinist affirm core truths i mentioned, and souls are manifestly born under each, and can have wonderful fellowship in Christ (though some force unwarranted conclusions) and thus men like Wesley and Whitefield could preach in each others churches.

Do you think Rome itself is unified on predestination? The Dominican and the Jesuits attacked each other for years over it, and after twenty years of discussion public and private, and eighty-five conferences in the presence of the popes, the difference has not been resolved, and the pope could only require a truce. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregatio_de_Auxiliis)

Things which Catholics seem to imagine a comprehensive universal unity is the reality in Catholicism alone, not counting all sola ecclesia churches, but even with Rome Catholics can disagree on:

  1. Which things Rome has spoken definitively on, or the extent; the infallible or non-infallible nature of multitudes of teachings, including in Trent, Vatican Two, and the catechism

  2. How far Catholics can disagree in non-infallible teachings

  3. Meanings of infallible or non-infallible teachings

  4. How many levels Catholic teaching falls into and the hierarchy of truths

  5. Whether the Pope is subject to Ecumenical Councils

  6. How many verses of the Bible have been infallibly defined.

  7. What degree of assurance the Imprimatur and Nhil Obstat provide

  8. Whether the stories of Adam and Eve, Jonah and the fish, Balaam and the donkey, the conquests of Samson and Joshua, and other accounts are literally true

  9. The meaning of inerrancy of Scripture

  10. What the guidelines on interpretation mean and allow

  11. Which Bible version is the most faithful to Catholic teaching

  12. Whether the Vulgate has the same authority as they original text (Divino Afflante Spiritu, #17)

  13. Whether or not 1Jn. 5:7in the Vulgate is properly Scripture

  14. Whether approved notes in Catholic Bibles are sound

  15. What Trent's affirmation of the Vulgate entails

  16. Meanings of multitudes of Bible verses

  17. Darwinian evolution vs not-Darwinian evolution and related

  18. Geocentricity or Heliocentricity

  19. How many bishops are necessary for this Collegial infallibility to be ensured?

  20. What Extra ecclesiam nulla salus and Lumen Gentium really means (status of Protestants)

  21. What the “subsits” in Lumen Gentium means, versus “is”

  22. Whether all the anathemas of Trent still stand and what they entail

  23. The role of "bishop" in apostolic succession

  24. Who all the church Fathers are.

  25. What the Fathers taught

  26. What Tradition exactly is and means

  27. Whether Tradition is the second of a two-part revelation (known as partim-partim), or if both forms of revelation contain the entirety of God's revealed truth.

  28. What happens to unbaptized babies

  29. What salvific merit means

  30. What the distinction between contrition and attrition entails

  31. Whether “not by works” refers only to the works done under the Law

  32. What conditions for annulments mean

  33. Whether the brethren of Mary were cousins or from Joseph via a previous marriage

  34. Whether Mary was a dedicated temple virgin before her marriage to Joseph

  35. How Mary physically remained a virgin

  36. Whether the Ark of the Covenant prefigures Mary

    Whether the term “Co-redemptrix” departs too much from the language of Scripture and of the Fathers, and whether Mary should also be called the Mediatrix of all Graces

  37. Whether the Virgin Mary died and then was assumed or whether she was assumed before death

  38. Who you can pray to in Heaven

  39. Whether 1 Cor. 3:10ff is actually about purgatory

  40. What the suffering of purgatory is

  41. What mode of predestination is right - ie Molinism vs Augustinian

  42. Other aspects of Predestination

  43. Waging war and Capital punishment

  44. The right of dissent based upon conscience

  45. What mode of predestination is right - ie Molinism vs Augustinian

  46. When a Catholic council first formulated its present canon

  47. Whether the canon of Trent is the same as that of Hippo

  48. Roman Catholicism's treatment of slavery

  49. How to reconcile Roman Catholic teaching both advocating and censuring freedom of religion, torture, etc.

  50. What charismatic practices are of God

  51. What the CC means in stating that private revelations add nothing to what was publicly revealed up and through Christ

  52. Many aspects of Eschatology

  53. Whether private revelation can be

  54. The place of political activism

  55. Ecumenism, and how much fellowship with the Orthodox is good.

    Things which Catholics can disagree on

  1. Original sin

  2. The contents of the Biblical canon

  3. Purgatory

  4. Original sin

  5. Baptism of desire

  6. Form of Baptism

  7. Universal papal jurisdiction and supremacy

  8. Papal infallibility

  9. The nature of transubstantiation, and manner of reception

  10. Allowance of Icons

  11. Divorce and Remarriage

  12. Faith and Reason

  13. The Development of Doctrine

  14. The Atonement

  15. Whether the Catholic charismatic movement is to be allowed

  16. Whether instruments are allowed in church

  17. Clergy – qualifications/Priestly celibacy

  18. What Tradition teaches

  19. Church fathers (who they all are, and taught)

  20. Dates of Feasts

  21. The Church

  22. Deification

  23. The Holy Church Canons

  24. The nature of the Sacramental Mysteries

  25. The number of Sacraments

  26. Beards

  27. Various other practices

  28. The Filioque; the Trinity

  29. Immaculate Conception

  30. The sinlessness of Mary

  31. Evolution

  32. Eschatology

  33. Ecumenism

  34. The new mass

  35. Infallibility of canonizations

  36. Who is primarily at fault for the Catholic schisms

  37. Whether a pope would no longer be pope if he became a formal heretic, "Latae sententiae." or if he is the only person who can decide if he is an heretic or an apostate

  38. Whether the pope is a validly elected pope or not.

  39. Whether Vatican Two and many post V2 teachings deviate from official Roman Catholic teaching (which opens up a whole new series of things which Catholic can disagree on under sola ecclesia.

    Then you have groups like the LDS, which also operate under the premise that the church is supreme, and effectively make their formal teaching and certain extraBiblical writings as equal or superior to Scripture, fostering as with Rome, implicit assent to what leadership teaches. And under which are found the most heretical doctrine.

    Thus it remains that unity under both SS and SE can be realized to a limited degree, while disagreements and division also is seen, and that the unity seen in Scripture itself was not comprehensive doctrinal unity, and was based upon Scriptural substantiation, which requires division from those who teach for doctrines the mere tradition of men.


406 posted on 03/17/2013 5:30:04 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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