My One Mass with Pope Benedict - It Brought Me into the Catholic Church!

Canterbury Tales ^ | February 28, 2013 | Dr. Taylor Marshall

[Iscool]

That’s your view. You can have it. I read mine in the Holy Spirit. There always have been layered meanings even in the psalms and everywhere else.

Well sure there are...But you can't just make 'em up as you go...

[Iscool]

That’s your view. You can have it. I read mine in the Holy Spirit.

My view??? You can read, can't you???

[Salvation]

Especially in the Gospel of John! Every word there means something! John wrote theology, not history like the synoptic Gospels.

[Iscool]

Especially in the Gospel of John! Every word there means something! John wrote theology, not history like the synoptic Gospels.

Yet your religion ignores 90 percent of what is written in John...

The Gospels are loaded with future prophecy...It's not just history...

[Mrs. Don-o]

This is a good discussion, iscool, and I think we're finally beginning to make some progress on it, because we're distinguishing between the different meaning of the word "pray."

I would ask you to consider distinguishing even further.

You equate Catholic prayer to Mary, the angels and archangels and saints, as "adoration" because it may include customary gestures such as raising one's hands, or genuflection. It all hinges on intent. One cannot "inadvertently" adore someone. One must ask what the person aims at expressing by his body language. It is mere slander to say posture indicates idolatry, when this is not so.

As a homely example, if a fellow dropped to one knee in the good old gallant gesture to propose marriage to his beloved, he could not justly be accused of idolatry just because he was on his knee: he was conveying a humble petition toward a loved person.

Similarly the raising up of hands, which one might do at a football game without fending off charges that we were adoring the Baltimore Ravens.

Catholics have a wide and finely-graded repertoire of gestures, as well as a vocabulary of reverence. It is easy to misinterpret by those who aren't familiar with it.

A deacon, for instance, could incense candles, the Baptismal font, the Gospel Book, the vestments, and all the hundreds of men, women and children up and down the aisles, without any supposition that he is adoring objects or his fellow human creatures. It is a dedicatory gesture: may all these things and all these people be set aside for the Lord's service --- the Lord, Who is only to be adored.

This glory and honor is not at all out of place. Keep Scripture in mind:

Romans 2:10
Glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

Romans 12:10
Love one another with mutual affection; outdo one another in showing honor.

Romans 13:7
Render to all what is due them: tribute to whom tribute is due, custom to whom custom is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.

We must make a basic and essential distinction between dulia, hyperdulia, and latria.

St. Augustine (City of God) distinguishes two kinds of honor: "one which is due to men . . . which in Greek is called dulia; the other, latria, which is the service pertaining to the worship of God". The difference is one of kind and not merely of degree; dulia and latria being as far apart as are the creature and the Creator.

Gottfried Leibniz, a Protestant theologian, recognizes the "discrimen infinitum atque immensum between the honour which is due to God and that which is shown to the saints, the one being called by theologians, after Augustine's example, latria, the other dulia".

Hyperdula is simply the highest dulia, the greatest respect that can be legitimately offered to a human person; and this is how we regard the Blessed Virgin Mary, who was given the highest honor a creature ever had: the honor of being the mother of Jesus Christ our Lord.

He who is mighty did great things for this blessed lady; and all generations will call her blessed. We fulfill that future prophecy.

[johngrace]

Amen.

[Salvation]

**Yet your religion ignores 90 percent of what is written in John...**

Catholics probably pay more attention to the Gospel of John than you realize since it contains the Discourse on the Bread of Life.

So many layers of meaning

[Iscool]

Catholics probably pay more attention to the Gospel of John than you realize since it contains the Discourse on the Bread of Life.

So many layers of meaning

Naw...We have been trying to engage you guys for years in all parts of the bible including John...Your religion doesn't comment much at all on John, or most of the bible for that matter so you guys are left without much of any discourse...

[Boogieman]

“Every time somebody in the Bible converses with an angel, they are communicating with a spirit. It happens multiple times in Scripture, and is never condemned.”

Where in the Bible does someone initiate communication with an angel, or any other spirit, through prayer, and not have that condemned? Angels are messengers of God, of course they are not forbidden to communicate with us. It’s trying to attempt the reverse which is clearly forbidden.

[Boogieman]

“Yeah, and that bad example Jesus gave us of talking with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration. What was he thinking?!?”

I think if you go back and reread that section, you’ll see that Moses and Elijah came down to Earth to speak with Jesus. Jesus did not pray to speak to them in heaven. Besides which, Jesus had already died, and was resurrected and gloried, meaning he was a spirit himself. We haven’t gotten to that point yet.

“Before a century had passed, you had supposed “Christians” scrawling on the tombs of martyrs “Pray for us”.”

Yes, and a supposed “Christian” sold our Lord to the Romans for 30 pieces of silver. Christians have been making mistakes from the get go. That’s why it doesn’t make a lot of sense to follow their example if it conflicts with the Bible.

[Mrs. Don-o]

”Where in the Bible does someone initiate communication with an angel, or any other spirit, through prayer, and not have that condemned? “

Your view of angels seems, well, unbiblical and detached to me, as if they were very far from us, or as if they don’t see and hear us. Look, even we dumb humans can communicate with tens of millions in a flash with our mere earthly technologies. Do you really think these blessed angels have less communication capacity than plodding humans do?

In the Psalms, you and I initiate communication with angels, we address them directly:

Psalm 103:20
Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his bidding, obedient to his spoken word.

We ask (invite) (pray) them to join us in blessing and praising God:

Psalm 148:2
Praise him, all his angels; praise him, all his host!

If we weren’t to address Angels, God wouldn’t have us doing it in the Psalms. And in many dozens of Christmas carols, sung in your church I suppose and mine, where we ask the Angels to “wing you way through all the earth” “join us in chorus raising,” etc. etc.

We have present with us Guardian Angels, sent to serve those who are to be saved.

Hebrews 1:14
Are not all angels spirits in the divine service, sent to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

We are always in the presence of angels: they observe us and know what we're doing.

Luke 15:10
Just so, I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

1 Corinthians 4:9
For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, as though sentenced to death, because we have become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to mortals.

1 Timothy 5:21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels, I warn you to keep these instructions.

It would be an interesting question, I think, whether we can ever NOT communicate with angels: that is, whether we ever say or do anything that they don’t know.

I would argue that neither the good angels nor the bad can read our minds ----but they can form a very shrewd opinion of what we’re thinking, simply because of their intelligence and centuries of experience. But Satan couldn’t read Christ’s mind: that makes me suppose that he couldn’t read our minds either, and neither can the good angels.

But other than that, I think we are in constant communication with angels. Even you are, whether you realize it or not!

If that’s the case, then what kind of “spiritualism” are we forbidden? It’s pretty straightforward:

• We are forbidden any contact with fallen angels (demons.)
• We are forbidden to try to obtain anything along the lines of foreknowledge, power, success, "luck" or personal advantage from an angel. This is what is meant by superstition, charms, spells, conjuringn fortune-telling, and the like.
• We are forbidden to regard an angel as a kind of independent operator, that is, acting on his own will apart from God.
• We are forbidden to request or covet extraordinary mystical experiences, since we are so prone to deception, Satan might appear to us as an angel of light.

Those saints who HAVE had mystical experiences --- not because they craved or coveted them but by the will of God --- all counsel great caution and skepticism. If approached by a spirit, we should challenge it by saying something like, “All praise to Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God.” This general sends the demons snarling away. They also react negatively to objects which have been consecrated to God, like crosses and Bibles. You can see that by the way they recoil from blessed objects during exorcisms.

That about covers it. May the Angels protect you, boogieman!

[johngrace]

Excellent answer.