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To: roamer_1
“…Perhaps the exception to the rule proves the rule, but I must be convinced of that, lest a deeper thing, one that the 'appearance' is not privy to, is missed altogether. “

Understood. Ultimately we can only know if we are instructed by an actual Apostle or Prophet on these matters. We are not able deduce such minute details just left to our own understanding. There’s just not enough information and instruction in the writings we have.

“The Gifts of YHWH are without repentance, so every_single_thing set forth from the beginning must be carried forward. “

Very astute observation and I agree.

The purpose of the “Apostle” must also be considered. The people in that time period lived in a very structured world. The Romans had a very structured government and military. The Jews lived under the law of Moses and all the laws that entailed. There was organized taxation among other things.

A chaotic Church would have been completely foreign to those people. So, I submit that even though Eph. 4-11 isn’t very specific, it outlines what could only be a very structured Church system. There were even more position in the Church than what is listed there. If we are to believe God is a God of order, then His Church would have to be as well.

Since the Apostles of the time spoke to God directly and the Bishops of the time did not, we must conclude a clear definition of duties which God Himself defined. This means, there was a hierarchy in the Church. I can conclude that in that hierarchy that the Apostles were the closest to God.

And as the NT demonstrates, the duties of an Apostle included teaching and correcting the Church as a whole and not so much individuals. If this is true, then the Apostles would be teaching, correcting, and passing on divine instruction to the Bishops.

Therefore, you can’t have a Bishop, with out first having an Apostle. By following the logic of “carried forward”, there would be a hole in the hierarchy above the Bishop and the Bishop would not be receiving divine council.

“But if we believe Yeshua, Elijah has already come (Mat 11:12-15), and no one noticed or understood (at least collectively)... Should we be graced with such a thing in our time, I think it would be hard to see through today's religiosity. I wonder if Christians can recognize the two witnesses predicted at the end of the age, or any other coming as a true agent. If the history recounted in the Word is any indication, most will not even notice. “

Most will not recognize them. Most have already refused to do so. Just like so many who stood feet away from Jesus Himself and refused to believe. They will be scorned by most of the people in the world. This is the prophesy.

They will be in plain view for several years, but the majority of the world won’t know them. And if someone rejects the servant, they reject the master. This is why Christ gave several warnings on this. No one can reject a true prophet and be saved at the judgment. Luke 13:23-28 is very clear. Most of the people that think they are getting into Heaven, won’t be allowed in.
57 posted on 03/11/2013 1:35:16 PM PDT by MeOnTheBeach
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To: MeOnTheBeach
Ultimately we can only know if we are instructed by an actual Apostle or Prophet on these matters. We are not able deduce such minute details just left to our own understanding. There’s just not enough information and instruction in the writings we have.

That is a very important concept, and one I have argued hereon for years. Would that Christianity might take such a precaution in all things: We don't know, and we should not assume - Such should be a foundational principle.

The purpose of the “Apostle” must also be considered. The people in that time period lived in a very structured world. The Romans had a very structured government and military. The Jews lived under the law of Moses and all the laws that entailed. There was organized taxation among other things.

A chaotic Church would have been completely foreign to those people. So, I submit that even though Eph. 4-11 isn’t very specific, it outlines what could only be a very structured Church system. There were even more position in the Church than what is listed there. If we are to believe God is a God of order, then His Church would have to be as well.

Now see, Here is a bone to pick - One of those 'new' things that have no place: The 'Assembly', or 'Congregation' goes WAY back. Why the distinction of 'church'? One just assumes, because one has been raised up in that tradition. Today there is a distinct difference between a church and a synagogue, a difference so great that it is insurmountable. But that was not the case at the beginning. Yeshua was a rabbi. An Hebrew mind would not see him setting up a distinct thing, but rather, another school or discipline of Judaism. What is interesting in that is that the premise of the founding of a different thing (a NEW thing) seems to be innate in Christianity, and it is just that sort of thing that gives me pause.

I do not see what Yeshua established as new, or chaotic - I see a return to Torah... A rejection of the traditions that Judaism bolted on to true religion. I see a renewed covenant, not a new one.

But in that, I find no place for the 'apostle'. The elder and the deacon translate right into Judaism... The cup and the bread, baptism, ... The structures transmit perfectly... as do all of the offices, except for apostle. Is that simply a translational issue? What an interesting thing to chew upon... As you say, YHWH is fond of order though... What is of note is that He ordered His religion long ago - The hard part seems to be to get Man to follow it. : )

This means, there was a hierarchy in the Church. I can conclude that in that hierarchy that the Apostles were the closest to God.

I don't know that I can precisely conclude that - I am close to that, and recognize the authority therein, but prophet and apostle seem to be fairly close by comparison - I am speaking of OT prophets particularly... the office of prophet. See below:

And as the NT demonstrates, the duties of an Apostle included teaching and correcting the Church as a whole and not so much individuals. If this is true, then the Apostles would be teaching, correcting, and passing on divine instruction to the Bishops.

True. but the same can be said of the prophets: Prophets teach, correct, heal, foretell, demonstrate (miracles), They have a direct audience with the Divine... pretty much the same thing as apostle. Like in kind, they are even authorized scribes. Like apostles, they also have authority to establish and tear down.

But perhaps there is a distinction: If an Apostle is equivalent to a 'great' prophet, the like of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and etc, and the lesser 'prophet' is equivalent to the gift of prophecy, rather than the office, then we have it tied up with a neat little bow. Please do not presume that I am endorsing it as such, but it gives you an idea how one might justify (reconcile) the present with the past - As I said, everything must be carried forward.

But for now, lets say the difference between prophet and apostle is that apostles seem to have a knack for planting which the prophets seem to lack, at least in an organizational sense... I can admit that this comes from a Pentecostal model that I can somewhat adhere to. And along with it, I do not want to lose the idea that the office of apostle seems to be of an higher authority than that of the prophet, if in fact hierarchy can be applied - I have to be cautious with that, as even the angels consider themselves fellow workers... hierarchy may not be the right concept exactly.

Most of the people that think they are getting into Heaven, won’t be allowed in.

I think that is true in it's sense, but I don't think we go to heaven - I think heaven comes to us. : )

60 posted on 03/12/2013 4:21:46 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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