Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin
> “just both displaying the Word of God to support our beliefs” <<
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But it is the rejection of the written word in favor of their Takanots that sets the Pharisee apart from the the Karaite that earnestly holds to the Torah, rejecting Talmud.
Paul was speaking of the appointed Days, or Times. They are not fasts, they are Feasts.
Exactly, just as the churches of the Reformation continue in the traditions and doctrines of Roman Christendom that set aside the Word of God rather than adhering to "Sola Scriptura" in which the Reformists all profess to follow.
Both are absolutes. Not ‘do your best.’
My point is that the idea of ‘doing your best’ ultimately leads to judging others. Jesus gave absolute commands, without the escape hatch of ‘do your best.’
Without the possibility of this absolute compliance, I am at the mercy of God’s Spirit and His mercy. I have no room to curse others.
This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.
I don't see that either but what I do see from Paul's words is that the entire conversation is about food. fasting and eating that which is sacrificed to idols. We know from written history that there were days commanded by he rabbinics for fasting. We also know that often meat sold in the market had been sacrificed to false gods before being brought to the market. So if someone who was new to the Way of the Word of God and chose to not eat the meat in the market for fear it may have been offered up to false gods prior to selling it, then one shouldn't hold it against that person and it is for the stronger in the faith to set aside that strength and not eat the meat lest it make the weak one even weaker.
Regardless, none of it had a lick to do with which day of the week is His Sabbath. There is a truth that can be gleamed from silence and that truth is the fact that Jesus never once had to correct anyone about the day of the Sabbath as the seventh day had never been changed by the dogma of man as was testified by the Word of God through Moses when the mixed multitude came out of Egypt and the record had to be set straight and then written down forever in stone.
Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. 5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
Exo 16:16 This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents. 17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. 18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.
Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
Actually you would be surprised at how they actually use the Word of God to support their beliefs. They are much more clever than the Pharisees of Roman Christendom. And it is their use of His Word without Talmud that continues to cause many to reject Yeshua of Netzer as the Messiah and join Rabbinic Judaism in waiting upon a false Messiah they teach will be of the ‘seed’ of a man of the flesh rather than the ‘seed’ of God the Father through the womb of a maiden as prophesied in Is 49:1-6.
Welcome to the world of legalism. Do women have to wear head coverings?
I guess they never met Paul, expert in the Law that he was.
Romans 14:1-12 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.
Or heard of the Council of Jerusalem....
Acts 15:28-29 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
Anyone who thinks their salvation is dependent on keeping the Sabbath is trusting in works to save them, not Jesus.
Therefore, in denying that the WHOLE Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation is for ALL mankind, Hoggard is denying the very existence of the authority of God the Father and His only begotten Son and creating his own authority upon the earth with a new Gospel message of lawlessness towards God the Father that the only begotten Son of God never taught or preached.
Someone went from saying people don't have to observe the Sabbath to denying God and His word???
Hyperbole much?
Can a vineyard grow unless it is pruned? According to Messiah it can not and we are ALL constantly being pruned for the day of harvest! It is just that some of us see the profit of pruning for the good of the whole body of Messiah and others like Hoggard reject the pruning and continue to enjoy and feed off of the weeds.
... but once again, you're not 'here' to judge. I think we can dispense with that unreality.
Now I wonder about the reality of your claim to have no intention to proselytize.
Now THAT is false teaching.
We are not covered with Christ's blood after we've done all we can.
Forgiveness is a gift, freely given for the asking.
Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Never heard of the guy myself.
but in reality all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him.
Then how was Elizabeth and Zacharias blameless and righteous in the sight of God?
That can be legalistic.
What Jesus is saying is that if you love him, the natural outworking of that will be the keeping of His commandments.
There's a difference between that and thinking that keeping the commandments necessarily means you love Him. One can keep His commandments and not love Jesus, just like Paul did. He was blameless as to the Law and yet violently persecuted the church to try to destroy it.
Heb 10:24 And let us be concerned for one another in order to stir up love and good works,1 Footnote: 1Mt. 16:27. 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging, and so much more as you see the Day coming near. 26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,1 Footnote: 1See also 6:6, Heb. 9:7, Num. 15:15-28. 27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. (See Mt 5:17-20, 22:47-23:3)
Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? 30 For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” 31 It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.
The "Son of Elohim" being the Word of God, if we reject the Word of God we trample on the blood that He shed for our sin in order that we could walk as He walked knowing that we are now free (Jm 1:25, 2:12: perfect Law of Liberty) to so so by no longer being subject to the curse of the Law for sinning, that curse being eternal death.
John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also.
Observing something in honor of the Lord is NOT the same as observing the day that is commanded as the set apart day that He is the Lord of. We are to observe the Lord in ALL that we do, but it is on His day that we cease from our work to be with Him on His appointed day of rest lest we show to mankind that God never ceases from working and neither should we.
I'll tell you what...
You show us where the word *fast* is in Romans 14 to show that Paul was actually talking about fasting like you claim.
Why are you dragging the King James Version into it?
Institute for Scripture Research? Founded by 8 guys in South Africa.
What great credentials........
Hyperbole much?
As I look through all the posts again, I can't figure out to whom you are referring and that has me worried. Like the old poker adage says, "Look around the table. If you can’t see the sucker, you’re it.
ABSOLUTELY, we can do nothing as to cause God to have to give us entrance into His eternal kingdom, that is salvation by works as opposed to works as evidence of ones receiving the seal of salvation by the grace of God. However, His grace does not and never has given mankind the license to disregard the Word of God. There are consequences for disobedience as Moses testifies to when he was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land. It is called the ‘blessings’ and the ‘curses’. Blessed are those that do and cursed are those that do not.
So it would seem to me that you do not understand what His ‘helper’ is. Does a helper do all the work or does a helper guide one in learning to do the work themselves?
See John 14-17!
Not exactly the word ‘fast’ but it does allude to the days one eats and the days one does not. I'll refer back to King Jimmy for this one.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Verse 6 directs us back to verse 5 for context about the ones eating and the ones that are not eating as to say, ones that are fasting as that is what fasting is, not eating. Knowledge of the practices and customs, aka traditions on fasting, is of great help in order to discern the language and idioms of the day and times in which they were written. We can not presume to think that they thought and spoke just as we do but one thing is for sure, the customs and traditions for fasting have not changed and still remain the same to this day and they are different for every branch whether Jew or Greek therfore we are to respect each others difference in regards to eating and not eating whether it be in fasting or in the matter of meat offered to false gods such as still done in many religions.
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