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Pastor Mike Hoggard of Bethel Church - A LIAR and FALSE PROPHET!
ConstitutionallySpeaking ^ | March 10, 2013 | ConstitutionallySpeaking

Posted on 03/10/2013 11:58:35 AM PDT by patlin

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To: patlin

> “just both displaying the Word of God to support our beliefs” <<

.
But it is the rejection of the written word in favor of their Takanots that sets the Pharisee apart from the the Karaite that earnestly holds to the Torah, rejecting Talmud.


101 posted on 03/10/2013 7:19:39 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: patlin

Paul was speaking of the appointed Days, or Times. They are not fasts, they are Feasts.


102 posted on 03/10/2013 7:22:06 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: editor-surveyor
But it is the rejection of the written word in favor of their Takanots that sets the Pharisee apart from the the Karaite that earnestly holds to the Torah, rejecting Talmud.

Exactly, just as the churches of the Reformation continue in the traditions and doctrines of Roman Christendom that set aside the Word of God rather than adhering to "Sola Scriptura" in which the Reformists all profess to follow.

103 posted on 03/10/2013 7:27:50 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: hosepipe; patlin

Both are absolutes. Not ‘do your best.’

My point is that the idea of ‘doing your best’ ultimately leads to judging others. Jesus gave absolute commands, without the escape hatch of ‘do your best.’

Without the possibility of this absolute compliance, I am at the mercy of God’s Spirit and His mercy. I have no room to curse others.

This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.


104 posted on 03/10/2013 7:45:39 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: editor-surveyor
Paul was speaking of the appointed Days, or Times. They are not fasts, they are Feasts.

I don't see that either but what I do see from Paul's words is that the entire conversation is about food. fasting and eating that which is sacrificed to idols. We know from written history that there were days commanded by he rabbinics for fasting. We also know that often meat sold in the market had been sacrificed to false gods before being brought to the market. So if someone who was new to the Way of the Word of God and chose to not eat the meat in the market for fear it may have been offered up to false gods prior to selling it, then one shouldn't hold it against that person and it is for the stronger in the faith to set aside that strength and not eat the meat lest it make the weak one even weaker.

Regardless, none of it had a lick to do with which day of the week is His Sabbath. There is a truth that can be gleamed from silence and that truth is the fact that Jesus never once had to correct anyone about the day of the Sabbath as the seventh day had never been changed by the dogma of man as was testified by the Word of God through Moses when the mixed multitude came out of Egypt and the record had to be set straight and then written down forever in stone.

Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. 5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.

Exo 16:16 This is the thing which the LORD hath commanded, Gather of it every man according to his eating, an omer for every man, according to the number of your persons; take ye every man for them which are in his tents. 17 And the children of Israel did so, and gathered, some more, some less. 18 And when they did mete it with an omer, he that gathered much had nothing over, and he that gathered little had no lack; they gathered every man according to his eating. 19 And Moses said, Let no man leave of it till the morning. 20 Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto Moses; but some of them left of it until the morning, and it bred worms, and stank: and Moses was wroth with them.

Exo 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

105 posted on 03/10/2013 7:47:41 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: editor-surveyor

Actually you would be surprised at how they actually use the Word of God to support their beliefs. They are much more clever than the Pharisees of Roman Christendom. And it is their use of His Word without Talmud that continues to cause many to reject Yeshua of Netzer as the Messiah and join Rabbinic Judaism in waiting upon a false Messiah they teach will be of the ‘seed’ of a man of the flesh rather than the ‘seed’ of God the Father through the womb of a maiden as prophesied in Is 49:1-6.


106 posted on 03/10/2013 7:52:26 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: delacoert; patlin; 1000 silverlings; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; caww; ...
Worship on Saturday or go to hell? It’s not like that’s a novel claim.

Welcome to the world of legalism. Do women have to wear head coverings?

I guess they never met Paul, expert in the Law that he was.

Romans 14:1-12 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. 2 One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. 3 Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. 4 Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.” 12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Or heard of the Council of Jerusalem....

Acts 15:28-29 28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: 29 that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

Anyone who thinks their salvation is dependent on keeping the Sabbath is trusting in works to save them, not Jesus.

Therefore, in denying that the WHOLE Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation is for ALL mankind, Hoggard is denying the very existence of the authority of God the Father and His only begotten Son and creating his own authority upon the earth with a new Gospel message of lawlessness towards God the Father that the only begotten Son of God never taught or preached.

Someone went from saying people don't have to observe the Sabbath to denying God and His word???

Hyperbole much?

107 posted on 03/10/2013 7:57:32 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Chaguito
How can one call out a false prophet without pointing our his heresy? I never condemned Hoggard, I merely pointed out the status of his fruit in the body of Messiah just as Messiah did and just as Paul did and told us to do. That's the problem with Christendom, they can not discern between judging fruit and judgment of sentencing a person.

Can a vineyard grow unless it is pruned? According to Messiah it can not and we are ALL constantly being pruned for the day of harvest! It is just that some of us see the profit of pruning for the good of the whole body of Messiah and others like Hoggard reject the pruning and continue to enjoy and feed off of the weeds.

108 posted on 03/10/2013 7:58:30 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

... but once again, you're not 'here' to judge. I think we can dispense with that unreality.

Now I wonder about the reality of your claim to have no intention to proselytize.

109 posted on 03/10/2013 8:01:36 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: patlin
And now that the Redeemer has resurrected, we have an advocate before the Father that covers our sins as long as in our hearts we are doing our best to obey the Father as the Son obeyed the Father.

Now THAT is false teaching.

We are not covered with Christ's blood after we've done all we can.

Forgiveness is a gift, freely given for the asking.

Ephesians 2:4-10 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

110 posted on 03/10/2013 8:03:51 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: wrcase; ChocChipCookie

Never heard of the guy myself.


111 posted on 03/10/2013 8:04:39 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Twinkie

but in reality all our righteousness is as filthy rags before Him.

Then how was Elizabeth and Zacharias blameless and righteous in the sight of God?


112 posted on 03/10/2013 8:06:40 PM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL; mdmathis6
“If you love me you will keep my commandments.”

That can be legalistic.

What Jesus is saying is that if you love him, the natural outworking of that will be the keeping of His commandments.

There's a difference between that and thinking that keeping the commandments necessarily means you love Him. One can keep His commandments and not love Jesus, just like Paul did. He was blameless as to the Law and yet violently persecuted the church to try to destroy it.

113 posted on 03/10/2013 8:07:33 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: metmom
I'm quite tired of King James so I am reverting to that which speaks more clearly the Word of God, the 1998 Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research.

Heb 10:24 And let us be concerned for one another in order to stir up love and good works,1 Footnote: 1Mt. 16:27. 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging, and so much more as you see the Day coming near. 26 For if we sin purposely after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a slaughter offering for sins,1 Footnote: 1See also 6:6, Heb. 9:7, Num. 15:15-28. 27 but some fearsome anticipation of judgment, and a fierce fire which is about to consume the opponents. 28 Anyone who has disregarded the Torah of Mosheh dies without compassion on the witness of two or three witnesses. (See Mt 5:17-20, 22:47-23:3)

Heb 10:29 How much worse punishment do you think shall he deserve who has trampled the Son of Elohim underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was set apart as common, and insulted the Spirit of favour? 30 For we know Him who has said, “Vengeance is Mine, I shall repay, says יהוה.” And again, “יהוה shall judge His people.” 31 It is fearsome to fall into the hands of the living Elohim.

The "Son of Elohim" being the Word of God, if we reject the Word of God we trample on the blood that He shed for our sin in order that we could walk as He walked knowing that we are now free (Jm 1:25, 2:12: perfect Law of Liberty) to so so by no longer being subject to the curse of the Law for sinning, that curse being eternal death.

John 14:12 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he shall do also.

Observing something in honor of the Lord is NOT the same as observing the day that is commanded as the set apart day that He is the Lord of. We are to observe the Lord in ALL that we do, but it is on His day that we cease from our work to be with Him on His appointed day of rest lest we show to mankind that God never ceases from working and neither should we.

114 posted on 03/10/2013 8:20:24 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin; editor-surveyor; mdmathis6
Again, can you point me to where Paul actually uses the word “Sabbath” in Romans 14 as to prove that Paul was actually speaking of the 4th Commandment and not to when a person fasts and when a person does not fast as Paul was well aware of the fact that the Sabbath was never a day for fasting and to do and teach such a thing, Paul would have been teaching and preaching against the Word of God.

I'll tell you what...

You show us where the word *fast* is in Romans 14 to show that Paul was actually talking about fasting like you claim.

115 posted on 03/10/2013 8:23:37 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: patlin
I'm quite tired of King James so I am reverting to that which speaks more clearly the Word of God, the 1998 Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research.

Why are you dragging the King James Version into it?

Institute for Scripture Research? Founded by 8 guys in South Africa.

What great credentials........

116 posted on 03/10/2013 8:29:26 PM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: delacoert
I do not confuse people with doctrines and thankfully God knows the difference between the body of Messiah and the religious systems of men. God chose a nation to be a light to the world and the religious dogmas of men, both Jew and Gentile have twisted His refined Word of light to suit their darkness called Pharisaic religion, both Jewish and Christian.
117 posted on 03/10/2013 8:29:31 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: metmom

As I look through all the posts again, I can't figure out to whom you are referring and that has me worried. Like the old poker adage says, "Look around the table. If you can’t see the sucker, you’re it.

118 posted on 03/10/2013 8:34:12 PM PDT by delacoert
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To: metmom
You confuse forgiveness with grace and ....

ABSOLUTELY, we can do nothing as to cause God to have to give us entrance into His eternal kingdom, that is salvation by works as opposed to works as evidence of ones receiving the seal of salvation by the grace of God. However, His grace does not and never has given mankind the license to disregard the Word of God. There are consequences for disobedience as Moses testifies to when he was not allowed to cross over into the Promised Land. It is called the ‘blessings’ and the ‘curses’. Blessed are those that do and cursed are those that do not.

So it would seem to me that you do not understand what His ‘helper’ is. Does a helper do all the work or does a helper guide one in learning to do the work themselves?

See John 14-17!

119 posted on 03/10/2013 8:38:18 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: metmom
You show us where the word *fast* is in Romans 14

Not exactly the word ‘fast’ but it does allude to the days one eats and the days one does not. I'll refer back to King Jimmy for this one.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Verse 6 directs us back to verse 5 for context about the ones eating and the ones that are not eating as to say, ones that are fasting as that is what fasting is, not eating. Knowledge of the practices and customs, aka traditions on fasting, is of great help in order to discern the language and idioms of the day and times in which they were written. We can not presume to think that they thought and spoke just as we do but one thing is for sure, the customs and traditions for fasting have not changed and still remain the same to this day and they are different for every branch whether Jew or Greek therfore we are to respect each others difference in regards to eating and not eating whether it be in fasting or in the matter of meat offered to false gods such as still done in many religions.

120 posted on 03/10/2013 8:50:00 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: metmom
What credentials did the Roman Christendom/Catholic priests have other than the ones given to them by themselves?

I said I like it best for its ease of understanding but I never said it was not without fault because it is, just as every English version of Scripture contains to a degree some fault, because they have all had the hands of biased men in their translation. And that is where the ‘helper’ of John 14-17 comes in!

121 posted on 03/10/2013 8:54:56 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin

“How can one call out a false prophet without pointing our his heresy?”

How about you follow the procedure give by Jesus in Matthew 18, and go quietly to him to explain to him your problem with his teaching. If he doesn’t listen, go with some of your brethren to establish at the mouth of several witnesses that he is recalcitrant. If that doesn’t work bring him before the entire church (but, of course, you consider the entire church heretical).

The fact is, your statement above is begging the question, since you assume Sunday is a heretical day for worship and rest, and therefore Hoggard is a false prophet. It is not established by anyone except a few that Sunday is indeed heretical.

I find Hoggard obnoxious for throwing muck at the Sabbath Keepers and I find you obnoxious for throwing capitalized muck the other direction.

Peter defined heresy in 2 Peter 2:1, where the word “even...” can mean, “that is to say...”. It had nothing to do with special days or observances, but with the 100% efficacy of Jesus Christ’s work in earth and in heaven.

I suspect you see yourself 100% dependent on Christ’s work on your behalf, right? And you are talking about the Christ of the Bible, not some gnostic fabrication, right? Then how can I condemn you for heresy. We can discuss differences about how we worship the only Lord who saves us. We can discuss the role of works and perhaps even differ on them. We can discuss a lot of things.

But it is an arrogance of power to thunder condemnation on others who share the same precious faith. It will have consequences. I suspect that you may not believe that.


122 posted on 03/10/2013 10:57:32 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: patlin; Whosoever

I also do not believe the Words of Jesus to be ‘Talmud’ as He is the Word of God and only spoke the Word of the God the Father. And I also do not equate Paul’s teachings or for that matter, any of the others to be Talmud as they never taught anything but the pure Word of God as exemplified to them by the Word of God that put on flesh.


“We” don’t have the words of Jesus.. We have what some tell us are the words of Jesus..
MAybe he said them in the context presented and maybe he didn’t..

Those words are what they are.. a “listeners” account to the words of Jesus account of them.. not the actual words..
Maybe in context maybe not.. some words may have been missed or even omitted..

Not that anything negative happened to the words.. but that was always possible.. Jesus didn’t recommend reading anyway(according to lore).. since most couldn’t read..
Jesus said got to the Holy Spirit.. and left the Holy Spirit in charge of this planet..

Actually the Jews forbade writing down the “words” of God.. for many centuries.. The knowledge was told in storys and memorized.. Thats what BarMitzvah was for and about.. before it degraded..

People do not need the Holy SPirit anymore, they have the Bible.. as replacement idol.. After all if you have the Bible what do you need the Holy Spirit for.. to ask him questions, you think, you already know?.. Or to gossip about some intellectual minutia?.. or to legitimize some rite or ceremony?..

Christians of today are not much different than the average Jew of the past or currently.. Pagan God-Lore worshippers..
Which I suppose is the way it should be, here on this planet, to make that choice..

They don’t know the Holy Spirit any more than they know the history of Barry HAlf-White the President.. and could care less.. The HS is like the Easter Bunny.. mentioned with a raised eyebrow..


123 posted on 03/11/2013 12:22:27 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Chaguito

This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.


Thank God you need not be smart for salvation...

Otherwise most Mormons, Adventists, Catholics, and Protestants would be out of luck.. maybe even some Baptists will make “it”..

Some kids are very smart but others are easier to get along with..
The mentally challenged are usually quite joyful..


124 posted on 03/11/2013 12:37:46 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: metmom

I’ve never heard of him either.


125 posted on 03/11/2013 3:21:55 AM PDT by wrcase
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To: ladyL

I don’t know. Ask the Holy Spirit; He said it in the Bible (Isaiah 64:4-9). - WE can THINK we’re pretty “good”, and be all wet.


126 posted on 03/11/2013 3:30:12 AM PDT by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: patlin
I'm quite tired of King James so I am reverting to that which speaks more clearly the Word of God, the 1998 Scriptures by the Institute for Scripture Research.

Why are you dragging the King James Version into it?

Institute for Scripture Research? Founded by 8 guys in South Africa.

What great credentials........

Why does it scream "cult"?

127 posted on 03/11/2013 4:24:25 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: delacoert

It’s in the article at the bottom.


128 posted on 03/11/2013 4:25:15 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: patlin

All that to say, “Mike Hoggard is not a Sabbatarian.”


129 posted on 03/11/2013 6:59:36 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Twinkie
The statement that Elizabeth and Zacharias were both righteous and blameless in he sight of God was made before the crucifixcion. Elizabeth and Zacharias were both Levites not Jews and from the tribe of Levi which had been divorced by God according to the Book of Hosea. Most Levites joined themselves with the House of Judah after the division of the Kingdom so that they could carry on their Temple duties. As Abraham was made righteous because of his faith in Yahweh perhaps the Levites were made righteous because of their faith in Yahweh which restored them to the Mosaic Covenant. Can anyone enlighten on this issue?
130 posted on 03/11/2013 8:02:34 AM PDT by ladyL
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To: ladyL

If you’re advocating getting yourself under the Mosaic Law; good luck . . but, be prepared to keep it ALL . . every jot, every tittle, every dietary requirement, everything . . because if you break one jot, or one tittle; or ever have broken one jot or one tittle, you are then guilty of breaking the WHOLE LAW - as bad as any adulterer, pornographer or politician. God’s GRACE, through the blood of Christ is the ONLY way, the only door.


131 posted on 03/11/2013 9:41:15 AM PDT by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: ChocChipCookie
It would be awesome if this article contained a statement that makes it clear what this guy’s beef is with Hoggard, whom I’ve never heard of.

And I thought my lack of understanding was some type of early onset senility.

132 posted on 03/11/2013 11:29:33 AM PDT by Gamecock ( If we distort the gospel, that distortion will influence and affect everything else that we believe)
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To: hosepipe
Jesus never every said read the bible.. because there were no bibles to read..

And yet Jesus read from the Scripures in the synagouge.

133 posted on 03/11/2013 11:32:47 AM PDT by Gamecock ( If we distort the gospel, that distortion will influence and affect everything else that we believe)
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To: Chaguito
How about you follow the procedure give by Jesus in Matthew 18, and go quietly to him to explain to him your problem with his teaching

You assume I didn't do that. You assume WRONG!!!

you assume Sunday is a heretical day

I don't assume anything, Scripture clearly teaches that Sunday is NOT the day God commanded and it is NOT the day that was the custom of Jesus to follow. At least the early Roman church fathers were honest enough to admit they changed the day and at least Roman Catholicism is to this day honest enough to admit that Sunday is the “mark” of her authority. If only Christians who follow Roman doctrines such as calendars and appointed holy days could humble themselves to see this truth.

Heresy is anything that is NOT of God. Jesus only taught that which was of God, nothing more and nothing less. The only bible they had during the time of Jesus was that which is left of Matthew, so wouldn't it behoove us to actually know it so to walk it as Jesus walked it and commanded us to do likewise?

The part of the ‘Book that is left of Matthew is not Jewish as the “hoggard false prophets’ claim it is, everything left of Matthew is 100% pure God and His Word who put on flesh and became our Messiah and it is,

“profitable for teaching, for reproof, for setting straight, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of Elohim might be fitted, equipped for every good work.”

There is a very enlightening passage in Isaiah that the “church” tends to overlook when they spew their diatribes about how the ‘Jews” are blind. Well, how about the blindness that was placed upon the other half of Israel who was sent packing and became like the nations, the house of Ephraim? What does it say about those int he nations who look and act like gentiles but in His mercy He will again begin to gather them out of the nations and be a ‘light’ to the nations for Him once again? What about those gentile Israelites?

Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel,

And this is directly what Paul was speaking of in,

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And what is Paul also alluding to here in regards to us only knowing in part?

Rom 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The Living Oracles that were first given at Mt Sinai, to the original congregation of God that Messiah came to restore.

Act 7:38 This is he, that was in the congregation in the wilderness with the messenger which spoke to him in Mt Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the living oracles to give unto us: 39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but rejected him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

They went to serve God as they pleased, disregarding the Word of God that had spoken to them to obey the commands of the Father. There was no new ‘church’ formed, there is merely the old that is being rebuilt and renewed for His 2nd coming. The entire world has been invited to join the congregation of God through the blood of the Lamb, the ENTIRE WORLD, just as it has been from the beginning. Nothing new, just simple truth that the church fails to see because of her blindness due to her disobedience.

And with that said, we LOVE the people, but we hate the false doctrine so in love we speak the truth to expose the lies of the false doctrine. That is what John teaches us that brotherly love is, it is tough love, but it is His true love.

134 posted on 03/11/2013 11:39:35 AM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: patlin
Jesus didn’t choose which day to rest and He never taught that after He died and resurrected that it would be ok for us to do what we think is right regardless of what the Father says. Jesus taught that we are all, including Him, subject to the ‘will of the Father’.

I have five words for you:

Christian Emergency Medical Care Providers

Explain to them that they cannot work on the day you think is inappropriate. They choose their own Sabbath, their own day for worship.

I've got another one for you:

Preachers

Are you saying they cannot work on the Sabbath?

135 posted on 03/11/2013 11:43:16 AM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: mdmathis6; patlin; ladyL
The big issue with the “Sabbath is none of us ultimately know if the Saturday or Sunday that some us may call the Sabbath (or not)...is actually the Sabbath. It wouldn’t surprise me that God’s resting day occurred on what we would call..a Thursday! God covenanted via the Decalog that the 7th day should be kept as the Sabbath...the 7th day would have been what ever the Hebrews called it based on time keeping used in Egypt before they left it.

That is wholly untrue. The years may have been changed, the months may have been changed, but the days remain, and a week is still a week... The seventh day is the Sabbath of YHWH. What you know as Saturday.

First of all, the commandment to keep the Sabbath originates in Eden, not in Moses. The Israelis were likewise given (reminded of) the Sabbath prior to the giving of the Law (see manna).

The sabbath day has been recorded by the Jews all the way back to Yeshua's time - And Yeshua made no correction... He, and all his apostles and disciples kept the weekly Sabbath and all of YHWH's Holy Days. Any argument prior to His time is made moot by His example, and confirmed by His disciples.

If you honor Sunday as the sabbath, you bow to Rome, not YHWH, as the Roman church freely admits. It is the basis of her power made real, as she declares.

There was no mention of Abraham and the earlier Patriarchs keeping a special day called the Sabbath...none that I saw in the Bible.

How then can Abraham have kept YHWH's commandments and statutes (Gen 26:5)?
How is it that Noah knew what 'clean' animals were?

Folks forget that the Order of Melchizedek precedes Arron, and Abraham.

136 posted on 03/11/2013 12:24:49 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: hosepipe
The reason I choose to believe the words of Jesus that have been recorded for us to be true is because they do not oppose that which is left of Matthew but rather they support and uphold all that which is left of Matthew without adding to or taking away form all that is left of Matthew.

And it is the fact that the writings of the Brit remain pure and true to the Tanakh that separates the Brit from the Talmud.

137 posted on 03/11/2013 12:31:50 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ShadowAce
Christian Emergency Medical Care Providers

Strawman argument Alert! Warning, Warning, Warning!!!

Luk 14:1 Now it happened, as He went into the house of one of the rulers of the Pharisees to eat bread on the Sabbath, that they watched Him closely. 2 And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy. 3 And Jesus, answering, spoke to the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?” 4 But they kept silent. And He took him and healed him, and let him go. 5 Then He answered them, saying, “Which of you, having a donkey or an ox that has fallen into a pit, will not immediately pull him out on the Sabbath day?”

138 posted on 03/11/2013 12:35:57 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: Gamecock

And yet Jesus read from the Scriptures in the synagogue.


If Jesus had to “read” then he was not “GOD”.. and not omniscient..
course a real “God” could do most anything, even read..


139 posted on 03/11/2013 12:37:45 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: patlin
That was pretty much my point. The insistence on observing a particular day for everyone is no doable. The Scriptures knew that as well.

This argument is dumb.

140 posted on 03/11/2013 12:37:58 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: ShadowAce

You need to read Torah.

The impressions that you espouse are not supported therein. Your premise WRT ‘work’ on sabbath is a Takanot.


141 posted on 03/11/2013 12:41:12 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: roamer_1
Folks forget that the Order of Melchizedek precedes Arron, and Abraham

They don't forget, they were never taught it because then the truth would be exposed as to the importance of the sharing of the bread and wine between Malki’Tzedek and Abraham and that it was a shadow of what was to come, the last supper and the sharing of the bread and wine as one of the steps to the sealing of any covenant that has to be done in order for the covenant to be valid.

If that meal had not been shared, then the covenant of the ‘seed’ of promise for a future ‘forever’ Malki’Tzedek high Priest to come would not have been valid. When Abraham accepted the bread and wine from Malki’Tzedek and then Abraham sending Makli’Tzedek away with a tenth of his wealth as a sign of Abraham's faith in that high Priesthood of God called the order of Makli’Tzedek, at that point in time, the covenant was made valid for Yeshua to become the high Priest forever.

The promise of the ‘seed’ of the woman of Gen 3:15 that would crush the head of the adversary sealed on that day forever!

Psa 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.”

Through Messiah, we are members of that priesthood.

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

Hos 1:9 Then God said: "Call his name Lo-Ammi, For you are not My people, And I will not be your God. 10 "Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not My people,' There it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.' 11 Then the children of Judah and the children of Israel Shall be gathered together, And appoint for themselves one head,

Hos 2:23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth, And I will have mercy on her who had not obtained mercy; Then I will say to those who were not My people, 'You are My people!' And they shall say, 'You are my God!' "

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

Hos 6:1 Come, and let us return to the LORD; For He has torn, but He will heal us; He has stricken, but He will bind us up. 2 After two days He will revive us; On the third day He will raise us up, That we may live in His sight. 3 Let us know, Let us pursue the knowledge of the LORD. His going forth is established as the morning; He will come to us like the rain, Like the latter and former rain to the earth.

Jer 50:6 "My people have been lost sheep. Their shepherds have led them astray; They have turned them away on the mountains. They have gone from mountain to hill; They have forgotten their resting place.

Joh 11:49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all, 50 nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish." 51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

142 posted on 03/11/2013 1:05:18 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ShadowAce
This argument is dumb.

The argument is not dumb. His Sabbath is a shadow, a rehearsal for His eternal Sabbath and the renewal, the healing of life for His people.

Without His Sabbath, there can be no renewal, without His Sabbath there can be no healing! Take away His Day and there is no need for Him now is there?

143 posted on 03/11/2013 1:11:58 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ladyL

Okay...well technically they were all Hebrews thru Jacob Isaac and Abraham...if you really want to put the matter thru the technicality strainer and Christians have been made spiritual Hebrews and children of Abraham via the Spirit of Adoption...there-bye fulfilling the promise to Abraham that the gentiles would be part of the inheritance.


144 posted on 03/11/2013 1:30:34 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: patlin; metmom; editor-surveyor; ladyL

Yeah well, when Christ comes to rule on the Earth what ever Sabbath day he declares it to be...then that’s what it will be for everyone. Christ was know to do surprising things when he was on the Earth. Maybe he will make the Sabbath on a Thursday...just to mess with our preconceptions .

Indeed, where-ever He is, so is the Father, so is the Holy Spirit and in the presence of God shall be our Sabbath feast, joy, peace, and rest, forever!


145 posted on 03/11/2013 1:42:05 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: ShadowAce
You are looking through the glass darkly. God considers those in service of healing, teaching Scripture and preaching Scripture as service to Him, not as a service to mankind. The fruit of compassion as God is compassionate leads to healing, but it also leads to the other fruits that are also reproduced when His Word is taught or preached.

It is when we turn from serving Him on His day to doing that which pleases us and our desires of the flesh as I used to do with my desire/lust for Nascar racing, that mankind runs astray from Him.

A world where everyone does what they believe is right in their own eyes leads to a world of corruption. But a world whose heart is set on being one with the Father as the Son is one with the Father, will bring forth the incorruptible fruit of the Father just as the Son did. (Rm 6:8-23, 1Jn 3:1-12)

146 posted on 03/11/2013 1:46:52 PM PDT by patlin ("Knowledge is a powerful source that is 2nd to none but God" ConstitutionallySpeaking 2011)
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To: ladyL

Further, we were strangers and foreigners as far as the Law of Moses was concerned (Gentiles). It is only through Christ that we can be grafted into the olive tree that is Israel. We are wild olive branches; they are the natural branches. The replacement theology that dispossesses the Jews had better think again. - Again, I don’t know anything about this Hoggard guy. - I do like to watch Irvin Baxter on End of the Age on the Church Channel; his programs are really good - doesn’t sound anything like Hoggard.


147 posted on 03/11/2013 2:04:05 PM PDT by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: Chaguito
This thread basically revolves around Hoggard cursing the Adventists and patlin cursing Hoggard.

My thoughts exactly!

148 posted on 03/11/2013 2:10:53 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: roamer_1

Actually I already answered Editor-Surveyor’s objection to my statement,(having attempted a lame joke about God having really rested on what we call a Thursday) knowing that there were plenty of ancient astronomers who could observe and keep track of time very well. Ultimately, in the muddled times after the flood and before the rise of the first big Mesopotamian civilizations whether or not there were still a few tribes that kept rigid track of the days or times or whether there was a “misplacement” of a few days here or there...I don’t think anyone could truly argue for or against.

Computers can extrapolate backwards celestial bodies and lunar positions, with corrections made with recorded info from ancient Babylonian records so that we know very clearly where the moon was on August 16, 3517 BC. If we accept the Jewish calendar and recorded cycle of years then we would know of the exact day and time, of the day of Creation.

I do find your remarks regarding Melchizidek intriguing as quite independently as I’ve looked at this thread, there were statements regarding the Talmud and of the rabbinical and priestly orders and I said to myself,”Yes but Christ was of the priestly order of Melchizidek not of Aaron and the Levites”. It could only be the order of Melchizidek that could keep the plumblines of time straight and true since the institutions of man would never be able to do so.
As for how Noah knew what clean or unclean animals were...the order of Melchidek may have informed him or God simply explained to him the same way God gave Noah the plan and skills to build the ark. The Bible doesn’t say how or if the order Of Melchizidek was involved in anyway. One can extrapolate I suppose since Christ was of the order of Melchizidek and since Christ was with the Father from the beginning, even, as the bible says in John, creating all things that ever existed, then one could argue that the order of Melchizidek was involved with the teaching and maintaining of the various ordinances right from the garden of Eden!

Yet, we also have Christ, God in flesh yet also a man tested at all points as the Bible says, who being of the the priest hood after the order of Melchizdek who looked at the plotting jackals at the time and said...”The Sabbath was made for man...not man for the Sabbath”.

Christ is not going to sweat it if a faithful follower of his worshipped on a Saturday or a Sunday. He will sweat it if in the process of keeping the Sabbath, the technicalities and the stress involved in hewing to those technicalities overcome the rest, the peace and joy that God wants us to experience during Sabbath...what ever day we keep it.

When Christ ultimately rules on the Earth, it will only be a minor adjustment to make sure everyone stays on the same page. After all, he will rule with a rod of Iron those of the nations who were left after the Great Tribulation.


149 posted on 03/11/2013 2:39:27 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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To: patlin; ShadowAce

“You are looking through the glass darkly. God considers those in service of healing, teaching Scripture and preaching Scripture as service to Him, not as a service to mankind. The fruit of compassion as God is compassionate leads to healing, but it also leads to the other fruits that are also reproduced when His Word is taught or preached.”

You aren’t even looking at the glass! You are arguing only from the vertical aspects of the cross. We love God with all of our hearts but we are also to love our neighbor as we love ourselves(the horizontal aspects of the cross). On those two commandments hang all the laws of the prophets.

As we discover that God loves us, then we begin to love God back. As we love God and he loves us, we begin to develop a healthy love and pure respect for ourselves. As we grow, we begin to look beyond ourselves and see those who are suffering and don’t have the same inward hope that God has given to us. We begin to yearn for these unsaved and to share our Hope with others, experiencing in miniature the same yearning for the lost that God the Father felt for all of us when He sent his son to die.

As for looking at glass darkly....lets see what that scripture really says so that you don’t ever use that phrase like a cudgel again!

<< 1 Corinthians 13 >>
King James Bible

(Love...and pay attention to verse 11-13; Context is key when understanding Paul’s epistles)

1Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Note that 1 Corinthians 13 is one of the greatest chapters on love in the whole bible.

One final question...it is true that God considers that when we do service to men we do service to him...but when God does service to men, has he also not done service for himself?


150 posted on 03/11/2013 3:07:30 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Rest assured, Mankind is loved....both completely and severely!)
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