Posted on 04/12/2013 10:59:53 AM PDT by EaglesNestHome
what a beautiful way to put it. Belief brings the ability to see miracles.
Perhaps you intended to address your post to someone else? I quoted only from the Bible, both Old & New Testaments.
"Our profession of faith begins with God, for God is the First and the Last, the beginning and the end of everything. The Credo begins with God the Father, for the Father is the first divine person of the Most Holy Trinity; our Creed begins with the creation of heaven and earth, for creation is the beginning and the foundation of all God's works."
---the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 198
Catholic belief is succinctly expressed in the profession of faith or credo called the Nicene Creed:
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.
I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
(bowing head) and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Had to take a moment to compose a logical thread.
If our souls were not in existence prior to conception, then does it not follow that our souls are a chemically creation? A creation of the joining of an ovum and a sperm? Thus, if our souls were created at the moment of conception, how can we make a claim that our souls are eternal? Further, how can we make the claim that our soul is created by God?
We are taught that our bodies are merely vessels that house our souls for our time during our mortal period. Our mortal bodies are temporary, our souls are eternal. That like Christ, we would know pain, sickness, torment, hunger, weakness and temptation - something that a soul (without a body) would not be able to conceive of. We are told that after we die, and are resurrected we will no longer know illness, pain, hunger or the torments of corruption.
During the Battle of Heaven, Lucifer took 1/3 of the Heavenly Host with him, and they were cast out. Among the 2/3rd who remained were a mixture of the faithful souls, but there were also very likely a goodly number of “fence-sitters” who simply lacked the courage to throw-in with either side.
My faith teaches that 2 plans were offered up to God. Lucifer offered up a plan that souls would live their life on earth and all would be compelled to do good, and by not being given a choice, all would return to God in Heaven, and the Glory of this would go to Lucifer.
Christ offered a plan that the souls would come to earth, and would have free will to do as they would. Some would seek to do evil and would cause great harm to others; while others would strive to do good. Some souls would return to God in Heaven, but many would be lost. Only the truly deserving souls would return - for their true nature would be given reign during their mortal lifespan. Knowing that sin was inevitable, Jesus offered his life as a sacrifice for the forgiveness of all those who would ask forgiveness in his name.
Earth is merely a filter, the stage on which we determine our ultimate reward or our ultimate punishment. Some of us will be rewarded for the choices we made, others will be punished - but we will all be dealt with fairly.
Take a battery, some insultated wire, and a nail and assemble a simple electromagnet. None of the parts were posessed of magnetism until all the parts came together, and a chemical reaction happend. Is that magnetism a chemical creation?
If we believe that Jesus was the Son of God, and we believe that we also are sons and daughters of this same God, then we must believe that we have similar spiritual roots as jesus (all of us being descendants of God).
Thus, if Christ is declared to have existed before the laying of the foundations of the earth, then doesn’t it follow that so must we?
Gen. 3:13-15, Gen. 49:10, Job 19:25-29, Num. 24:5-7, Jos. 5:13-15, Ps. 2:7-12, Ps. 22, Ps. 110:1, Pro. 30:1, Isa. 9:6-7, Isa. 53, Dan. 3:24-25, and Dan. 9:24-27
That doesn't have anything to do with chemistry. Your opening question establishes a premise, and the arguments that follow should be based on that premise. I submitted a question that challenges the premise, and therefore calls any arguments based on it into question.
Are we arguing general philosophy or personal theology?
It can't be summed up in this type of forum but it's a complex subject, explained and answered in the pages of the bible...you may want to start here:
Magnetism and Chemistry are not related. Magnetism deals with the alignment of dipoles in a Ferrous metal, whereas Chemistry deals with the chemical, or in this case bio-chemical interactions of organisms. Magnets are created by a magnetic interaction, not by a chemical agency.
You do not mix chemicals together, and create a magnet.
Our bodies are created by a bio-chemical interaction.
If a soul is created at conception, the soul is a result of a organic bio-chemical reaction, and exists only as long as the bio-chemical organism exists. One could argue that the creation of this soul does not involve God at all, that it is simply a mechanism created by God that self-replicates without His interaction.
Whereas if we are eternal, created in a preexistence along with Christ; as indicated in various passages in both the Old and New Testament, then our time here on earth is a “phase” in our progression.
Now, I think in your lifetime you have met people who you felt were genuinely “good” people - people who were good all 7 days of the week, not just on Sundays between the hours of 10am - 3pm. These were people who held deceit, deception, betrayal and hatred of their fellow man in contempt and took every practical effort to distance themselves from those who embraced evil. And I’m sure you have also met people who would not hesitate to use deceit to gain your trust, and then betray that trust to steal whatever they could from you.
On earth - we have passed through a veil, where our certain knowledge of the eternities has been removed from our conscious memories such that we have the free will do chose to do good, or to do evil.
To be eternal, yet to remain forever fixed in place - to never learn, to never grow and to never progress is not what we were intended to for. If God wanted mindless worshipping robots to satisfy his ego; he would have created mindless worshipping robots.
We are here to prove ourselves worthy. Some of us will merit return home, by our faith, and our actions; and others will damn themselves by the same.
Without the chemical reacion in the battery, there would be no magetism in your electromagnet.
If the chemical reaction did not create the magnetism, the it cannot be argued that emergence of a new property following a chemical reaction means the chemical reaction must have created it. You've just demonstarted the creation of a new property (magnetism) following a chemical reaction (the discharge of the battery) that was not created by the reaction.
Lots of things we differ on here.
Our souls are not chemical. A soul is no form of mass-energy or space-time. That would be Manichean.
Also, that does not mean they are eternal. Catholics differentiate between eternal and forever. Nothing is co-eternal with God. Souls are not eternal; but they are immortal and forever. Eternal means a no-space, no-time condition because no change is possible, and God does not change since any change would be away from perfection. Since God created space and time as well as all the matter in it, only He is eternal, and everything else is forever. Forever is an infinite space, infinite time condition, which applies to us.
Humans are not just souls, but body and soul. The Resurrection will be resurrection of a body also, a perfect spiritual body that does not experience the ills that affect our bodies now because of sin. Sin brought death into the world. Once of the consequences of this doctrine is that Mary, who was conceived without sin, never experienced sickness, and she was assumed into Heaven rather than died. This was what was supposed to happen to Adam and Eve if they never bit the apple. Bodies are not just vessels or suits we walk around with for a time, but will be reconstituted at the Resurrection.
Note that when Jesus said we would “Be like the angels” he was speaking in the context of marriage. There is no need for immortals to conceive children. It did not necessarily mean we would be disembodied souls.
The idea that we would exist as only souls after death without bodies is a little Manichean, and very Gnostic. Catholics reject that.
I have heard something about this story about two plans, but not much because we do not consider it canonical. At the very least we do not hold Satan on the same level as Jesus. Satan is a creature, and Creation was by the Father, through the Son, and with the Holy Spirit. Jesus, as being One with the Father, is eternal and not a creature. He was begotten of the Father from eternity, not created. He came from eternity for a time and returned to eternity without changing. This is part of the mystery that humans cannot wrap their minds around.
The filter idea is a useful metaphor. After death, there is no salvation from Hell once entered. The parable of the sheep and the goats tell us that. I doubt there are many Christians sects that do not believe that.
I agree. I think there is some confusion in that the sentence of Hell and Eternal Damnation is made upon Judgement Day - AFTER our resurrection. Between the "now" and the "then" is a temporary holding place. For the souls who have been good, this place is far more pleasant than earth and (personal bias injected) this is perceived as Paradise, not Heaven. For the souls who have been predatory, who have sought evil their temporary reward is a Spiritual Prison. After all, after the crucifixion didn't Christ go to this Prison and preach to these souls? What would be the point of this exercise if they were damned to hell, anyway? To tease and torment?
I believe that even after death, there is an opportunity for repentance, however once our nature is established the personal motivation for true repentance as a spirit is limited. For example, I doubt that Adolf Hitler, in death is much different than Adolf Hitler was in life. I doubt he has any remorse for the sins he committed in life - BUT if he did, and truly repented and asked forgiveness, must not he be forgiven too?
Can any soul truly enter Heaven, prior to Judgement Day - unless Judgement Day is in a different time/space continuum than us - and is currently happening. For us here on earth, Judgement Day is still coming - arriving after the resurrection of the dead.
Are you suggesting that the soul does not exist until conception - then at the moment of conception is created and immortal and is a part of the organism we call “mankind”?
No, I an giving a example that disproves the premise that because the person was not posessed of a soul until conception that conception must have created the soul.
But no one has claimed that conception created the soul.
was the soul created at the point in time of conception, or prior? I believe the soul is eternal, in that it was created by God, but before the earth was created. Before our birth, we knew God, we dwelled in Heaven, and eagerly accepted the temporary challenge that is mortal life, that we may progress to whatever next stage awaits us.
As intelligent beings, we learn - we seek out ways to learn and grow - to remain forever limited in knowledge is not in our makeup; it is not how God designed us. We are inquisitive by nature, I believe this will be carried with us after death.
Your position is logical, given the soul is eternal. Catholics do not hold that position. We are adopted sons and daughters of God, not begotten as Jesus was. There is only one begotten Son of God. Otherwise, we would be worshipping each other or Mankind in general rather than divinity, which we hold to be only held by the Trinity.
We also believe there already are souls in Heaven. We call them saints. The whole point behind requiring a miracle as proof of sainthood is that it would only be possible if that particular soul is in Heaven and can intervene on our behalf before God. As to Hell, we are specifically directed to not believe any particular soul is in Hell, since we do not know if they repented before death. Even Judas may have been saved, but the odds are not good!
There is an open question as to continued spiritual progress after death. I am not aware that anything canonical has been taught, because there is so little information about what souls do in Heaven other than intervene on our behalf and continually look to God. Since souls only exist in time, we can infer that progress is possible, but not repentence, such as a complete reversal of sentiment.
Dante’s Inferno presents one interpretation of the Catholic understanding of Hell, and includes the Harrowing of Hell performed by Christ. So far as we can determine, it was the old Sheol, a holding place for souls or God’s waiting room prior to the Judgment which held those souls who lived before hearing the message of Christ on Earth. Christ came back with the Redeemed, and those remaining behind were left with the fallen angels.
It is all speculation at this point, since ambiguity is necessary. We are not supposed to be certain, since certainty precludes hope, and the mandate is to hope that all men be saved. There is no mandate to know that all men be saved. Much of the theological conflicts of the Church have involved an inability to deal with the uncertainty.
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