Posted on 04/19/2013 10:21:32 PM PDT by DouglasKC
Sigh...I’m not going away....so I wish you would please stop being so rude.
No, it's rude and vindictive.
So long as we are in flesh bodies that 7th trump has not yet sounded. That concept that flesh age has a shelf life is not taught by many Christian preacher/teachers/priests. And the lack of this instruction leaves open the door for the greatest deception/tribulation ever to take place
Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (This beginning of the world is akin to Paul's lesson in Ephesians 1:4 'before the foundation of this world... both are referring to the casting down - overthrow of that first rebel... The elect were chosen between the events of Genesis 1:1 and 1:2... Christ said time would be shortened for the elects sake, as only they would not fall for the tribulation of deception... Got to know what the deception is to avoid that first tribulation. What would make God fearing Christians so filled with shame they would pray for mountains to fall on them? (Luke 23:29-30) Verse 29 is describing a wedding out of season. Might be better understood in the 'spiritual' comparison of Jeremiah 3:8
And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
Paul said Now all these thing that happened to them (ICorinthians 10:11) for ensamples: (examples) and they are written for out admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come.
Thank you for your gentle and gracious tone. Can you give me examples of what you said above? thanks!
pointing out the theology of a particular denomination when it differs from orthodox beliefs of the faith, is not being rude. especially if it is a major deviation from the christian faith, being anti-trinitarian, for one.
he didn’t do any personal attacks, and you are free to refute any errors he wrote, and/or defend these beliefs, too.
He follows me to every thread I post or participate in. That's either rude or he has a man crush on me...not sure which.
I've engaged with him multiple times and patiently explained how he is wrong, but he's not content with that.
He is the perfect example of when to exercise this type of judgement:
Mat_7:6 "Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Now if you have questions I'll be glad to answer them as best as I can in good faith.
“Many people believe God will accept them just as they are. But Scripture nowhere supports this idea. God expects His true followers to grow, mature and bear fruit. What kind of fruit does God expect? And how do we produce it?”
Gal 5:1-5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (2) Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. (3) For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. (4) Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (5) For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Note verse five especially, “we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.” While it is true that good works are a fruit of the Spirit, we must not get confused about what is producing these works, and how righteousness is actually imputed on man, so as not to come under the influence of men who would like to put a yoke on your shoulders. The moment you find yourself being told that you must follow dietary laws, or attend a particular church to get Jesus, or keep someone’s pet doctrine to be saved, it’s time to run for the hills. Or, better yet, run to your Bible.
Jesus Christ, far from giving us any heavy yoke to bare, asks us to lay upon Him our heavy burdens:
Mat 11:28-30 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. (30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
This is an offer of rest for all those burdened by their sins, their imperfections, and their trembling fears. We are not commanded here to live in fear, but in peace by trusting in the power and promises of Jesus Christ.
Joh 11:25-26 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: (26) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
It is by the righteousness of Christ that we will be judged, and not by our own personal failures:
Rom 4:3-8 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
While faith is indeed made perfect with works, the works themselves are not done to earn points with God or even with yourself. It is by grace that we are saved by faith, and even our faith itself is the work of God’s grace revealing to us that He is indeed the Christ.
Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Rom_11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
The scripture in John is the most important to our topic. He has “ordained us that we should go and bring forth fruit... and that your fruit should remain.” Another scripture to add on to this:
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
This “work” begun by Christ is, according to Barnes’ commentary, “can be no other than religion, or true piety. This is called the work of God; the work of the Lord; or the work of Christ”. If it was started by man, there would be good reason to fear it, and to be troubled at the idea that it could be impermanent. We are flighty things, and left to ourselves we can do nothing except die. But because it is by God, who ordained us so that we would produce fruit, we can be confident that it will ultimately prevail. If it is by man, how can we be sure “it shall remain?” It should be understood, then, that it remains because it was determined by God that we would produce it, and that there is nothing in us that we do not receive from the Father.
Work, work! Because we are to be Holy, and he who does not show his faith by his works is likely damned. At the same time, that man who is damned is very unlikely to be worried about his salvation to begin with. If YOU feel that fear, if you feel that sin weighing on you and warring against you, be of good cheer, and rest in Christ who has defeated sin and death already:
Rom 7:19-25 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: (23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. (24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
If a man says to you that you must obey his religion, look at these commandments and compare them to what he wants you to do:
Mat 22:36-40 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? (37) Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. (38) This is the first and great commandment. (39) And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (40) On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Jas_2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Anything more than this is not prescribed by the scripture, so do not fear those who would demand you bow and scrape before their altars or follow their carnal ordinances that in no way can make you perfect.
Rest in Christ, and do not boast of your works, nor hope in them. Hope in Christ, who works in you and for you.
For starters:
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; (breath of life means soul) and man became a living soul.
The Book of Ecclesiastes is about the flesh body that houses the soul/spirit intellect...
Consider Chapter 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
10 Is there any thing whereof it may be said, 'See, this is new?' it hath been already of 'old' time, which was before us.
There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after.
Again consider what Solomon penned... I am not going to type the whole book which is relevant but to the specific point ...
Chapter 12:1 'Remember' now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, ...... verse 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He That came down from heaven, even the Son of man Which is in heaven.
IPeter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,
but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. .....
I am not going to type the rest but the thought continues into Chapter 4 which is why there is the parable of Lazarus (Luke 16:20-) and the rich man, wherein Lazarus in across the 'gulf' in the bosom of Abraham, not dead in some grave. Salvation was offered by Christ those literal three days and three nights in the tomb to all those that had pass through this flesh journey... Of course we have no idea who accepted Christ, but the rich man of ill gotten gains is an example of the mindset of those that are separated by a 'gulf' and can see those that have already overcome.
It is my opinion one of the reasons why Christ said Judge not least ye be judged because 'salvation' is about personal individual one on one interaction with the Heavenly Father, and only God is and can judge.
DouglasKC wrote: “I’ve engaged with him multiple times and patiently explained how he is wrong, but he’s not content with that.”
There are two anti-trinitarian threads you started where I have engaged you, and reengaged you, and you have not once responded to the major charges on your religion re: polytheism. In fact, you’ve avoided it like the plague. Simply attacking the Trinity or Christian liberty does not defend what you hope to replace it with: polytheism and slavery.
Matthew 7:6 my friend, Matthew 7:6. Responding to your false charges is like throwing pearls to a pig...
I’ll get to your post probably sometime Sunday or Monday...got a pretty full weekend and I’m not sure how much I’ll be on....ping me if I don’t reply by Monday in case I forget...thanks!
If you find the time to respond that is fine. However, I do not have the need to require you to reply. I do not have as much time at present to be in front of the computer.
“Matthew 7:6 my friend, Matthew 7:6. Responding to your false charges is like throwing pearls to a pig...”
I’ll respond to your false charges with documentation. The following is a repost I’ve made against DouglasKC on multiple occasions with no response on his part.
The first part is a quick review of Trinitarian scripture, followed by information on the UCG’s views of their “open” Godhead:
That the Trinity is in the scripture, that cannot be questioned:
Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all.
Isa_48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
That Jesus is literally God, there is no question of it:
Mat_1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
That the Father and Son are distinct, and yet one God, cannot be questioned:
Joh 8:17-18 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. (18) I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.
Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.
God Speaking in the Old Testament:
Isa_41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
Isa_44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Jesus Christ speaking in the new, calling Himself by the same name. Not two different gods who are made “one” by being in the same family, but One God:
Rev_1:17 ... Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Rev_22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev_1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
That the Holy Spirit is God, and not an inanimate “force,” cannot be questioned:
1Co_3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
Act_13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Joh_14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
At the center of all of this is the fact that Christianity is monotheistic. We believe in only one God, as clearly taught in the scriptures. Is YOUR religion monotheistic? Let’s find out:
According to the papers on the UCG website, their war with the Trinity actually centers on their rejection of God being limited to “only one being” (11). According to the UCG, God is one in the sense of collective unity, when 2 different beings are one in a collective sense, as sharing common goals, but not one in substance:
“This idea of collective unity is clearly demonstrated in Genesis 2:23-24, “And
Adam said: ‘This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman,
because she was taken out of Man.’ Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be
joined to his wife, and they shall become one [echad] flesh.” Here two distinct individuals are
“one” flesh. This is not talking about one in number but one in collective unity, harmony, peace
and the sharing of common goals.” (10)
Thus, the idea of there being only one God, is changed to merely a devotion to but one God, but leaves the door open for many gods to exist, citing various scriptures to allege that they are “problematic if one concludes there
is only one being called God in the Old Testament” (14). And more:
“The purpose of Deuteronomy 6:4 is to show ancient Israel that their Elohim is the only
God and that all the pagan gods are to be rejected. Thus the purpose is not to explain the nature
of God but to show that He is unique and the only God to worship.” (11)
Due to the obvious problems of this theology, your religion uses the concept of the “God Family,” and the “collective unity,” in order to maintain the idea that they are yet “one” God, though there are actually two separate beings in the Godhead (the Holy Spirit is simply done away with, since His name does not fit the “Family” concept), as they say here: “God can be defined as a family—one God family, although currently consisting of two beings” (15).
The logic follows from hence, after they deny the idea of “adoption,” that we will partake of divinity and join with God in the God-Family, IOW, become “one” in the Godhead the same way their version of Jesus and the Father are one:
“Thus, the Godhead is not a closed Trinity, nor an absolute unity of only one God, but a dynamic family unity that allows for Spirit-born believers to become the very children of God.” (41)
http://members.ucg.org/papers/NatureofGod.pdf
Throughout those entire 40 something pages, not once were any of the scriptures addressed which refute their claims. What does the scripture really say of these ideas, in brief?
That there is only one God, not defined as a “family unit,” but having no other “God” beside Him:
Isa_44:8 ... Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
This unity utterly precludes the possibility of there being “two” separate beings who are merely “united” in the sense of cooperation. There is only one God, united in substance, and yet not contradictory to when Isaiah writes the phrase “The Lord GOD, and His Spirit hath sent me.”
Neither can there be any other gods formed. There are no other gods joining the godhead, no “open” trinity. It is utterly closed. There is, and always will be, and always has been, just one God:
Isa_43:10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
None formed before, none formed after.
The UCG’s view, therefore, is a thinly veiled polytheism, very similar to the Mormon concept which argues that they themselves are monotheistic, because there is one Godhead, but that the Father literally had sex with a goddess wife and produced the Son. They make the same argument against “strict monotheism,” and veil it with the same concept of strict devotion to just one God, but not that there are not any other gods.
Another fine post DouglasKC. You should take it as a compliment that newbies like GPH feel it necessary to heckle you.
“Another fine post DouglasKC. You should take it as a compliment that newbies like GPH feel it necessary to heckle you.”
Another fine post? His last one was anti-trinitarian. Are you aware he is promoting UCG articles and that the UCG, amongst many other strange doctrines, is polytheistic?
What part of Matthew 7:6 do you NOT understand? Are you unsure of what role I am assigning to you? :-)
Thank you for the kind words Styro...appreciate that...watch out for incoming!
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