Posted on 05/03/2013 4:55:43 AM PDT by NYer
What the Church believes, teaches, and supports often is not reflected in what they demand be enacted in the civil law.
Do you believe what the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church both teach - that homosexual acts are gravely disordered and sinful, even though the Church does not propose a civil law outlawing homosexual acts? Do you believe the Church should stop opposing all such homosexual acts, just because so many people these days engage in them?
Civil unions are the first step on the slippery slope. I supported it initially as a sop, but the gaymafia have revealed their true agenda — first civil unions then a demand for marriage, then forcing everyone to support their perversion
Evangelical Christians are very much against same sex marriage last time I checked. They are also against sex outside marriage. The only difference is that Protestants generally allow birth control. But even some followers of the fundamentalist sects (like the creepy Duggars) are against that.
I don’t care if people want to go to a Traditional Latin Mass as long as TPTB scrub all the anti-Semitism out of the Latin missal. However, many TLM types tend to be very self-righteous in their beliefs. Theirs is the only Mass that is valid despite the fact that the new post Vatican II is also licit. I think that the prime example of this is the feet washing non-controversy. The Pharisees-R-Us wing of the Church spent time screaming about how this would lead to lady priests and missed the entire point of the Pope’s lesson.
I’m fine with them having their Mass as long as they don’t act as long as they aren’t scolds to the rest of us.
The Church also doesn’t demand that atheists are punished for their beliefs.
“First of all, don’t be too quick to bash all the Pharisees. Most of the “Books” of the New Testament were written by a Pharisee, and most of the non-Gospel New Testament readings you hear in most of your Spanish Masses were written by a Pharisee (St. Paul).”
Yes.. I know who St Paul is... Catholic school girl here. I also know that Paul had a conversion on the Road of Damascus and spent his life ministering to the Gentiles. He criticized St. Peter for saying that Gentiles should have to convert to Judaism and follow Jewish dietary laws, etc. before they would be welcomed in the Church.
“Also, one of the most well-known texts in the Bible (John 3:16) was a quote from Jesus in answer to a number of questions he answered in a discussion he was having with a truly seeking and believing Pharisee named Nicodemus.”
And that passage speaks of being born again.
“Jesus had a problem with the hypocritical Pharisees, not all of them.”
And He would definitely have a problem with “theological narcissism” today. The lady foot washing controversy? Arguments over phrases in the Missal? Sounds the Pharisees’ horror over Jesus healing on the Sabbath or eating with prostitutes and tax collectors.
“(By the way, do you think it is a good idea to employ provocatively dressed young dancing women during a Celebration of the Mass, or do you think that is legitimately labeled a liturgical abuse, for ALL Catholics?)”
I’m assuming that we’re talking about JPII-Marini I Masses. They were African dancers.. Geez. However, I do think that Marini I (and JPII, who was after all an actor,) were enamored with turning Mass into a Broadway production. I’d prefer something lower key, but I don’t think that this is what we should hyperventilate about.
(BTW.. I don’t think that Marini I Broadway productions are coming back under Francis. It seems to me that Francis prefers simple, short Masses and that he really likes giving homilies.)
“And while it is a worthy goal to try to bring as many people as possible into Church to try to help them to find the Way, the Truth, and the Life, the numbers themselves are not the main focus. “
The Church has been bleeding members for the last forty years. It would make sense to figure out why people walked away from the religion that they were raised in. I’m thinking that a huge reason why is the liturgy wars.
“If the criteria for judging an outcome of a religious effort is simply the numbers responding to that effort, you would have to say that the huge “mega-churches” are superior to most Catholic Churches, as they seem to attract many more attendees.”
Well, they are doing something right if they are getting people to attend a church service on Sunday. I think that the difference between a Catholic parish and a Evangelical megachurch is that Protestant Evangelicals are very open and very expressive about their faith. They live out their faith on a daily basis. Catholics tend to be very insular and inward focusing. I’ve felt more welcome at many Protestant churches when I attend with friends than when I attend Catholic Mass.
I think that Pope Francis was really right in his diagnosis of the root cause of the Catholic Church’s decline. There has been too much navel gazing. It is time to stop arguing about the proper form of the Mass and start living our faith in our daily actions with each other.
“Do you think that just because the majority of people alive today want to persist in their sins and do not want to change their wicked ways, that the Church of Jesus Christ should say, “That’s okay”, and embrace and endorse their sinful behaviors, or do you think we should be trying to say, “Go, and sin no more”, as Jesus Christ clearly commanded?”
I also remember rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar and God what is God’s? God is also big on Free Will.
I know. My point was, that Bible Alone approach is an unpredictable random process: some Protestant sects get some aspects of sexual morality right and others wrong, and some Protestant sects get some aspects of liturgy right and others wrong. That is because they lack theological tools to understand sexuality and liturgy.
“The Church has been bleeding members for the last forty years. It would make sense to figure out why people walked away from the religion that they were raised in. I’m thinking that a huge reason why is the liturgy wars.”
People walked away because it became evident that many priests did not believe what they had been telling their congregations.
**They live out their faith on a daily basis.**
It’s sounding like you might be Catholic, but an inactive Catholic.
It has been my experience that Catholics live out their faith on a daily basis far more than non Catholics.
I can even cite personal references. I asked a non Catholic to help me with my oven six years ago. This person is an electrician and still hasn’t made it to my house.
I asked for a ride to church when I couldn’t drive due to medication and a fellow Catholic was right there for me.
I was laid up while recovering from a hip replacement and it was Catholics who brought me food for two weeks.
When I got dehydrated, I called a fellow Catholic, rather than a non-Catholic to come over to my house and get a fan for me since I was so hot. When she got to my house, I was under the covers shivering about ready to go into heat stroke. She called the ambulance for me and then called my daughter.
Of course not - the Church does not demand that ANYBODY be punished for their beliefs.
However, do you think the Church should tell atheists that atheism is fine, or do you think the Church should do whatever they can to show atheists that atheism is 100% wrong, and that the atheists should turn away from their false beliefs, and turn to God?
All sinners are (of course) welcomed into the Church. They must fully renounce all their sins before they can become Catholics, or receive absolution if they are already Catholics.
Now after Saul/Paul had that conversion on the road to Damascus, he wrote this to the Corinthians:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.Paul was not writing this just to be friendly, like discussing the weather or something. He was warning these sinners that if they did not repent and turn away from their sinful ways, they were going to hell.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
We should NOT endorse or approve of homosexual "civil unions" or any other thing that would indicate approval of any kind of sinful behavior that will send people to hell. St. Paul certainly didn't - that's why he wrote that to the Corinthians.
"And that passage speaks of being born again."
Right, and being born again means turning from your sinful ways - not persisting in them, either in homosexual "civil unions" or in any other way, and all Catholics should promote that all of us sinners turn from our evil ways, not persist in them.
"I’m assuming that we’re talking about JPII-Marini I Masses. They were African dancers.. Geez. However, I do think that Marini I (and JPII, who was after all an actor,) were enamored with turning Mass into a Broadway production. I’d prefer something lower key, but I don’t think that this is what we should hyperventilate about."
It is not a good idea to assume anything. What flowed out of that were many liturgical abuses in many different parishes (some of which I've personally witnessed) including provocatively dressed women dancing during the Mass a number of times. That is one example of a liturgical abuse during the Holy Mass. There are many others - just do a seach on "liturgical abuses" to see many of them.
"Well, they are doing something right if they are getting people to attend a church service on Sunday."
Well, the Sunday NFL football games get many more people in than the mega-churches, and like the mega-churches, they are also geared more for entertainment, not full spiritual well-being.
"I also remember rendering onto Caesar what is Caesar and God what is God’s? God is also big on Free Will."
Of course God gives us free will, and values it, but God does not want to use that free will to sin. Do you think that it somehow means we Catholics should then endorse sinful behaviors that will end up sending people to hell, just because the government says it is okay to do those sinful behaviors? For example, if the State of Nevada legalizes prostitution (which it has), do you think that the Catholic Church should then support prostitution for those sinners who engage in it, or should the Church unequivocally advise those people to turn away from those sins?
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