Posted on 05/03/2013 10:50:36 AM PDT by marshmallow
Contradicted by their ignorant statement about the Old Testament if your anecdote is indeed true.
So are you saying that the WORDS written down by the holy prophets have the same standing this day as anything else written since? Why did any and all religious leaders of every Christian denomination sit silently by when government, we the people allowed the Ten Commandments get removed from our public square? At what point did Christ replace those Ten Commandments with 7 sins?
It really does not take a Bible scholar to discern Christianity as a whole has nearly become a character repeat of Jeremiah 3:8.
God had Moses lay out in detail what to expect IF His children turned their individual or collective backs upon Him. This would be found in the book of Deuteronomy. We are about there.
“I certainly wouldn’t speak ill of Mary since it’s not her fault that Rome has made a deity out of her.”
1. The official teaching of the Catholic church is the catechism.
2. Can you cite where in the catechism it states that Mary is a god?
“mediator between man and the One True Mediator is pure superstition and idolatry.”
Tell me sir, what is your interpretation of the word, “mediator” and “intercessor?”
“Can you cite where in the catechism it states that Mary is a god?”
Not from the Catechism, but from Roman Catholic sources:
“This maternity of Mary in the order of grace began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until The eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this salvific duty, but by her constant intercession continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix (helper), Adjutrix (benefactress), and Mediatrix. This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ the one Mediator.” (Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Lumen Gentium, Solemnly Promulgated by Holiness Pope Paul VI, Nov. 21, 1964 , #62).
“in the power of the grace of redemption merited by Christ, Mary, by her spiritual entering into the sacrifice of her divine son for men, made atonement for the sins of man and (de congruon) merited the application of the redemptive grace of Christ. In this manner she cooperates in the subjective redemption of mankind.” (Fundamentals of Catholic dogma, page 213 as cited in “the facts on Roman Catholicism” by John Ankerberg and John Weldon, harvest House publishers, Eugene Oregon, 1993, page 51)
“Mary is the intermediary through whom is distributed unto us this immense treasure of mercies gathered by God, for mercy and truth were created by Jesus Christ. Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother.” (Vatican Website: Encyclical of Pope Leo 13th on the Rosary, Octobri Mense, Pope Leo 13th, 1903-1914)
The Catholics never call her God, but they do place her on the pathway to salvation, attributing to her the giving of “salvation” as well as claiming she is between us and Christ. The scripture teaches that there is only one Savior, who is God (Isaiah 43:11, Hos 13:4, Is 45:21). We are also taught that only Jesus Christ is the way to the Father. Nowhere is it taught that we should or can access Him through Mary.
“Tell me sir, what is your interpretation of the word, “mediator” and “intercessor?”’
The same as the dictionary. What we should be concerned about is whether or not the scripture allows for someone to pray to the dead, and if the dead are even capable of hearing and processing the billions of daily prayers from Catholics. (To suggest such a thing is basically to attribute to her and all Rome’s various saints omnipresence and omniscience, which are attributes of God only.)Or why, if Christ can hear our prayers, we should desire some other mediator between us and Him to begin with, when He has promised in the first place to be our intercessor between us and the Father (1 John 2:1). Thus the Catholics want us to go to one intercessor, to get to another intercessor, to intercede with the Father.
According to the scripture, we are all made Kings and Priests in the sight of God (Rev 5), and we also have the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ. There is no sin, therefore, that can stand between a true Christian and His God, that we should forsake the Biblical example and embrace the dead.
My comments weren't ambiguous. If you are faithfully paraphrasing your relatives, they are indeed ignorant not only of Scripture but of Catholicism.
Please provide the URL you utilized for your cut and paste that you relied on as your “Roman Catholic sources” and also, once again provide the citation from the Catechism where the Blessed Virgin Mary is called a god?
“Please provide the URL you utilized for your cut and paste that you relied on as your “Roman Catholic sources” and also, once again provide the citation from the Catechism where the Blessed Virgin Mary is called a god?”
The quotes all have sources, and I’ve already answered the latter question.
He already admitted that the Catechism does not teach it. Ergo, the Catholic church does not teach that Mary is a god.
“So I guess you’re done lying about what the Catholic church teaches.”
I quoted from Roman Catholic sources. Which one of them do you disagree with?
“Christ himself says, “I am a God not of the dead but of the living.””
And that has what to do with praying to people other than God?
“What evidence do you have that time works the same way in heaven as it does here on earth?”
What evidence do you have that Mary is in heaven going through the millions of Catholic prayers sent to her methodologically? If you say “time” is the problem in response to the charge that she would have to possess omnipresence or omniscience for Catholic prayer to work, then you hold she still has the faculties of a human being. Even if a thousand years is a day for her, she’s still pretty busy. And presumably, the angel that is delivering all the prayers to her is pretty busy too, coming in and out of heaven gathering those prayers, since she herself is not on Earth listening.
I prefer not to burden the heavenly UPS system and simply pray to God, as commanded in the scripture.
Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our FATHER which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
This is why I call it idolatry, because we are never commanded to pray to anyone except God. When we speak in secret, it is God who hears in secret, not any angel, not Mary, not any Saint, who just happened to be present.
“The Catholic church teaches that Christ is our mediator, and that Mary, (along with any of the other Saints in heaven), can intercede on our behalf. I notice you don’t actually mention this which is fatal to your theory that the Catholic church teaches that Mary is a god. If she has the same abilities as every other Saint, this would mean you are 100 percent wrong.”
The Bible teaches that Christ is our mediator, and that Christ intercedes on our behalf. The Catholic church gives to Mary a special place between Christ and man not supported by the scriptures, and, in fact, rendered as utterly unnecessary by them.
“If Christ allows it who are you to deny it?”
So you confess Roman Catholic redundancy. Good. The next step is to confess it’s not in the Bible, and that the Bible actually teaches against it since it emphasizes the honored position every believer has in the sight of God.
“He already admitted that the Catechism does not teach it. Ergo, the Catholic church does not teach that Mary is a god.”
That’s like saying, “We can attribute to Mary all the roles of Jesus Christ, we can pray to her and expect her to hear it personally (which implies she is omnipresent and omniscient), insert her into the salvation formula (Mary —> Christ —> the Father), claim that gifts of salvation come from her, assert that her prayers can save us from damnation, etc, but as long as we don’t call her GOD we don’t blaspheme.”
The LDS make similar claims, only they make it out to Joseph Smith. Except, they actually do believe he is a god. They’re more consistent with their logic, as silly as their logic is.
There is no question that Rome martyred Christians. There is also no question that there is some exaggeration in some accounts of martyrdom. So why is this a “thesis”? Is it acceptable to kill people for their beliefs as long as it’s under a certain number?
“insert her into the salvation formula (Mary —> Christ —> the Father), claim that gifts of salvation come from her, assert that her prayers can save us from damnation”
Well then, you ought to be able to show me where in the Catechism the Catholic church teaches that praying to Mary is required for salvation.
“I quoted from Roman Catholic sources. Which one of them do you disagree with?”
I asked for a citation from the Catechism. You failed to provide one, despite claiming directly that the Catholic church teaches this. Ergo, the only thing that can be concluded is that the Catholic church does not teach this to be the case.
If you’re willing to concede this point, we can move onto discussion of each of these sources in turn.
“And that has what to do with praying to people other than God?”
You said, and I quote, that “Catholics pray to the dead”. I prove that scripture teaches, very clearly, that they are not the dead. So once again - you are distorting what it is that the Catholic church actually teaches.
Two, prayers to. Wrong again. The Catholic church says that we can ask the Saints in heaven to pray for us. Just as we can ask our brothers and sisters here on earth to pray for us.
“What evidence do you have that time works the same way in heaven as it does here on earth?”
“What evidence do you have that Mary is in heaven going through the millions of Catholic prayers sent to her methodologically?”
You said this was impossible. All I need to cite is the biblical quote, “through God all things are possible”.
“If you say “time” is the problem in response to the charge that she would have to possess omnipresence or omniscience for Catholic prayer to work, then you hold she still has the faculties of a human being.”
I believe that the Lord has the ability to make one second seem like twenty thousand years.
“Even if a thousand years is a day for her, she’s still pretty busy. And presumably, the angel that is delivering all the prayers to her is pretty busy too, coming in and out of heaven gathering those prayers, since she herself is not on Earth listening.”
Yes, and? What’s your beef there? That Mary might be busy in heaven praying for all the people who ask her to pray for them?
“I prefer not to burden the heavenly UPS system and simply pray to God, as commanded in the scripture.”
Good for you. God permits that. God also permits this, so if he permits it why are you claiming God’s authority for yourself? If it’s good enough for God, it’s certainly good enough for me.
“Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our FATHER which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.”
Yeah, ok. Is your assertion that Catholics don’t pray this?
“This is why I call it idolatry, because we are never commanded to pray to anyone except God.”
And Catholics do not pray to anyone save God. You need to read up on the doctrine of the Communion of Saints in the catechism rather than distorting what the Catholic church actually teaches.
“When we speak in secret, it is God who hears in secret, not any angel, not Mary, not any Saint, who just happened to be present.”
Well sure, but again, this doesn’t bar Catholics for asking the saints to pray for us. Any saint, not just Mary.
“The Bible teaches that Christ is our mediator, and that Christ intercedes on our behalf.”
Where does the bible teach this?
“The Catholic church gives to Mary a special place between Christ and man not supported by the scriptures, and, in fact, rendered as utterly unnecessary by them.”
Does the Catholic church teach that asking Mary to pray for you Mary is necessary for salvation? If so, where in the Catechism does it teach this? If not, why are you claiming that the Church teaches this when it does not.
“So you confess Roman Catholic redundancy.”
I confess that God in his Mercy permits it. He does not require it.
“Good. The next step is to confess it’s not in the Bible, and that the Bible actually teaches against it since it emphasizes the honored position every believer has in the sight of God.”
Where does the Bible claim to be the sole doctrinal authority for the Church?
You’re right, the problem is not theirs lone. Both kook cults and ignorance are viral. You see this all over, exactly as you said.
[Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.]
And she did. “Be it to me according to your word.”
Blessed among women. “Behold your mother.”
But who am I, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Parts of the Old Testament are allegory. The Creation Story and Noah’s Ark... The Creation Story is actually written as a critique of the Enuma Elish, a Babylonian creation story. It was likely written when the Israelites were in exile in Babylon. And I learned that in Catholic school.
This doesn’t mean that God didn’t create the Earth. It just means that it didn’t take seven days to do it.
“Well then, you ought to be able to show me where in the Catechism the Catholic church teaches that praying to Mary is required for salvation.”
More importantly, you ought to be able to show me where in the scripture that any Christian in heaven can work with the Trinity in heaven to secure salvation for others:
966 “Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.” The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.”
You say that she is not required. That’s fine, and good for you to say. So that means I can totally ignore this and go straight to God myself, as commanded in the scripture, and ignore the Papal Bull.
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