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To: annalex

“True enough, but you (speaking collectively of anyone) don’t know it. Whatever your predestination is, your works of faith are included in it, and so are the sacraments you receive — or the sacraments you flee.”


You are misunderstanding predestination. Predestination is defined not as God foreseeing your works and rewarding you in advance, but rather that God has chosen to give to you His favor despite the fact that you do not deserve it, even before you have done good or evil, and inspite of your evil even, according to His own good purpose and will to save you (Rom 9:10-16, 2 Ti 1:9, Eph 1:4).

There is only one type of grace that God offers in scripture, and it is this grace which, by definition, is given to you despite the fact that you do not deserve it. Speaking of grace as “uncreated so not properly an object” is like saying that an emotional or mental state is an uncreated object. You might as well believe in magic, or the dark side or the light sight of the force, speaking like this. Grace is God’s favor, and because that is exactly what it is, it cannot be dispensed like cokes from a machine for a $1.25.


50 posted on 05/10/2013 3:05:44 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
God has chosen to give to you His favor despite the fact that you do not deserve it, even before you have done good or evil, and inspite of your evil even, according to His own good purpose and will to save you (Rom 9:10-16, 2 Ti 1:9, Eph 1:4).

The scripture does not say that God chooses without foreknowledge of your works.

...For all are not Israelites that are of Israel: [7] Neither are all they that are the seed of Abraham, children; but in Isaac shall thy seed be called: [8] That is to say, not they that are the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they, that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed. [9] For this is the word of promise: According to this time will I come; and Sara shall have a son. [10] And not only she. But when Rebecca also had conceived at once, of Isaac our father.

[11] For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) [12] Not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. [13] As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. [14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.

[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (Romans 9)

As you see the context is that not all of genetic Israel is elected, nor are the Gentiles unelected. It indeed explains that predestination works before any works have been accomplished, but it does not say that these works do not count in the divine decision. Besides, the passage is focused on on what predestination is but on what true Israel is.

[6] For which cause I admonish thee, that thou stir up the grace of God which is in thee, by the imposition of my hands. [7] For God hath not given us the spirit of fear: but of power, and of love, and of sobriety. [8] Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but labour with the gospel, according to the power of God, [9] Who hath delivered us and called us by his holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the times of the world. (2 Timothy 1)

That grace that the sacrament of consecration is in St. Timothy is indeed not of any works of his, but rather of works of Christ Eternal. However, the same passage also calls Timothy to "labor with the gospel" so Timothy's works are certainly a part of his calling; he in fact is called because of his work as a bishop.

As he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and unspotted in his sight in charity. (Ephesians 1:4)

That passage speaks of election being by grace alone, which is a Catholic teaching, as is of course every other passage in the Holy Bible. It also sets the goal for the elect right there: "unspotted in charity". I don't see how this advances your idea that the Ephesians were elected (those, that is, that were, -- some we presume were not) whether they "have done good or evil, and inspite of [their] evil even".

As a general proposition, God is sovereign and certainly has the power to save people for no rhyme or reason; however, we as Christians have faith in God giving us His commandments so that we take guidance from them and reach salvation according to them and not in some unpredictable fashion; we are inclined to take His word and His love for us seriously.

52 posted on 05/10/2013 7:00:14 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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