“I argued that Cornelius was a lesson for Peter “
The lesson was not for Peter, since Peter learned the lesson before the Holy Spirit fell. Since Peter did not need convincing, there was no impediment for water baptism, followed by the usual signs and wonders. The people witnessing it would have been just as struck, and no one would be able to question what the point of water baptism is since it’s allegedly to cause what they had just witnessed.
“Here is where the error lies.”
You did not address all the scriptures I quoted. Here’s another:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
This was right before Christ ascended to heaven, and therefore is after Christ breathed on them to “receive the Holy Ghost.”
You also ignore the other points which show that the signs and wonders that the Apostles received on Pentecost were indistinguishable from that which occurred to Cornelius. If Peter says it is the “same as us,” you cannot tell me what part of the Holy Spirit they still lacked that water baptism needed to complete.
“Really?”
Yes, really, unless you have a problem with the scriptures I quoted. They’re quite clear and already deal with your objections.
“One does not cooperate with God for the purpose of salvation, that is a gift freely given, but one must cooperate with God in order to remain in Him and have eternal life.”
You sounded scriptural for a moment, but then you contradict yourself. If we do not cooperate with God for the purpose of salvation, why are we cooperating with God “in order to remain in Him and have eternal life”? Salvation is to eternal life what eternal life is to salvation.
“God does not force salvation upon us, even when we are saved.”
There’s something strangely contradictory about the things you say here. But, that salvation is entirely by God, literally “forced” on us, is already demonstrated by the other scriptures I posted.
I’ll add that the reason why this is is because man, by his own nature, is simply incapable of seeking God or serving Him:
Rom 3:10-20 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (13) Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: (14) Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: (15) Their feet are swift to shed blood: (16) Destruction and misery are in their ways: (17) And the way of peace have they not known: (18) There is no fear of God before their eyes. (19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
This is another reason why we cannot attribute anything truly good in our lives as coming from ourselves, since there is nothing good in us that we do not receive from the Father.
“IF it were possible. Meaning even the elect will be subject to these false ones, and if it were possible, meaning if the possibility exists, even the elect may fall prey to them.”
If it were possible means that it isn’t possible. Jesus is telling us that the delusions would be so powerful that it could even deceive the elect... IF that were possible. It says nothing about the elect being subject to them at all.
Ah, I love the way things get twisted, points get ignored and Scripture is used to suit one’s purpose rather than seen in the light the Lord meant, as one continuous tale, taken together to form a correct picture.
That the non Catholic does this is why I call them piecemeal Christians, each taking snippets of Scripture and trying to force them together while leaving out or ignoring others. The result is a myriad of incomplete understandings of the whole of God’s word. Jumbled up puzzles that only resemble each other rather than fit together into a cohesive picture that reveals the Truth.
In truth, many, too many, Catholics think like these non Catholics, but they do not direct the placing of the puzzle pieces. What they do is like those pictures that you can’t see the hidden image until you look at it a certain way.
Despite these Catholics, and I would have them not be such, the Catholic Church itself remains true to what has been revealed to her, weaving the written word, with the Sacred Tradition and the teachings of the Magisterium into a rich and vibrant tapestry of God’s revelation.
******The lesson was not for Peter, since Peter learned the lesson before the Holy Spirit fell. Since Peter did not need convincing, there was no impediment for water baptism, followed by the usual signs and wonders. The people witnessing it would have been just as struck, and no one would be able to question what the point of water baptism is since it’s allegedly to cause what they had just witnessed.*****
How conveniently “and us” is left out there. The lesson begins for Peter with the vision and ends when the Holy Spirit comes upon Cornelius. It is then he proceeds to baptize Cornelius and his household. Again, Peter would have to totally reject the words Jesus had spoken directly to him to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Also, Peter would not then have baptized Cornelius immediately following. It’s that simple. Say what you will, Scripture clearly says that Peter states that he cannot deny water, i.e. baptism which would mean that baptism was effective and necessary. Cornelius and his household had to still be baptized.
But, in the lesson we learn that the kingdom of God is for all, even those we may not believe are included. That’s God’s call, not ours.
****This was right before Christ ascended to heaven, and therefore is after Christ breathed on them to “receive the Holy Ghost.”****
Yes, proving that the coming of the Holy Spirit is more than a one time occurrence, that we have a lifetime of the Holy Spirit coming over us to lead us to truth and give us the grace to proclaim the Gospel.
Jesus doesn’t say, “Receive the Holy Spirit, well actually this is just a promise to receive the Holy Spirit, sort of a preview of things to come.”
NO, He said, “Receive the Holy Spirit” and he breathed on them. Period, no qualifier, just those simple words.
*****You also ignore the other points which show that the signs and wonders that the Apostles received on Pentecost were indistinguishable from that which occurred to Cornelius. If Peter says it is the “same as us,” you cannot tell me what part of the Holy Spirit they still lacked that water baptism needed to complete.*****
Cornelius and his family were baptized for the remission of their sins, their rebirth into Christ. Again and again and again I have explained that the sequence with Cornelius is unique and it is so because what had to be revealed was that Gentiles were also included in the new covenant.
I never said any part of the Holy Spirit was lacking, in either the Apostles after Jesus breathed upon them or in Cornelius when the Holy Spirit came upon him.
Peter says in Acts 2:38, “Repent and be baptized, everyone of you in the name of Jesus, for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
That is the norm, the ordinary means, but as we see with Cornelius, not the only means. This has been my argument from the beginning.
****Yes, really, unless you have a problem with the scriptures I quoted. They’re quite clear and already deal with your objections.****
I have no problem with the Scriptures you quoted, but with the way they are presented in a piecemeal fashion that ignores others which are seemingly contradictory.
Romans 11:22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
To continue in His goodness, would indicate someone who has received the grace of God and remained there. What happens to those who fell? They were cut off. Cut off from what?
And furthermore;
Romans 11:23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
To be grafted again would mean that they had been grafted, fell away and needed to be grafted onto the vine again.
1 Timothy 4:16 Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.
What happens if one does not persevere? And how does one save themselves? Paul is speaking here to BELIEVERS, those who are in Christ’s body. What does he mean?
These are but a few of the verses that contradict that is is impossible for a believer to fall away. There is no Scripture which supports the claim that those who fall away never were believers int he first place.
How about this from Jesus in Matthew 24?
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Or in Mark 13?
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
*****why are we cooperating with God “in order to remain in Him and have eternal life”? Salvation is to eternal life what eternal life is to salvation.*****
in Ephesians 2...For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do
Paul tells us in Timothy that Scripture is for preparing the servant of God may be equipped for every good work.
Our good works are those things that bear fruit. If one does not bear fruit, then one is cut off from the vine to whither and die.
God says, I have set a path before you, choose.
We choose to follow the path God has set. We choose life over death. We choose by our actions when we endure in faith, cooperating with God’s plan through our deeds.
*****But, that salvation is entirely by God, literally “forced” on us, is already demonstrated by the other scriptures I posted.*****
Salvation is indeed entirely by God, but never forced upon us. Even if we are saved, we have the free will still to reject salvation and God’s grace. If God were to force anything on us, we no longer have the free will to choose Him. We are puppets.
****I’ll add that the reason why this is is because man, by his own nature, is simply incapable of seeking God or serving Him:****
We have free will to choose to follow the call of God. So, while none may seek God on his own, God has written His law in our hearts and calls to us constantly, but He allows us to choose.
*****“IF it were possible.*****
“If” is a qualifier which means the possibility exists even if only slightly, even if only miniscule. Were it impossible, then that is what God would have said here. That it is impossible/ But the impossibility is qualified with if.