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To: BillyBoy
The concept that the successor to Peter has special authority ABOVE all other bishops predates even the 1054 schism. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of Papal infallibility that was established at Vatican I. You can find the doctrine on papal primacy going back to the time of Pope Leo the Great and earlier. Pope Damasus I (366-384) and other figures claimed universal jurisdiction over the whole church. If you want to believe in the Orthodox teachings that the bishop of Rome is merely granted an honorary position of "first among equals" and has no special authority over others, you're entitled to that belief. But no matter how much you claim it's Catholic doctrine, your beliefs are in sync with the Orthodox Church. Pope Francis would never claim he's "first among equals" and has no more power than the bishop of Milan.

I did not say 'honourary'. Do not attribute that to me. Do not tell me about Pope Francis' claim about himself since you obvious don't know it, and don't tell me that I believe that he has no more power (however you mean it) than the bishop of Milan. One who claims what you have claimed merely seems foolish.

Garry Wills makes a similar argument as you. He says he's a good Catholic and prays the rosary every day, yet he insists that priests have no power to consecrate the eucharist and we can all interpret scripture as we wish. He says this is the "traditional church view". It certainly is the traditional Protestant church view, but it is NOT the Catholic Church's view no matter how much he claims otherwise.

Do not accuse me, even indirectly about the role of priests in the Eucharist, of having a belief anywhere near what you have posted. I am in the process of putting together an intermediate school religious ed program (over 3 years) that is based entirely on the Catechism. And the Biblical quotes that it is based on.

Do not lump me in with Wiccan Gaia worshipping lesbian nuns on a bus, or Marxist socialist rabble rousing 60s priests. Tell you what: read the Catechism and then get back to me about the Catholic faith. Until then, do not lecture or accuse about what you do not know.

33 posted on 05/13/2013 2:38:54 PM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
>> Tell you what: read the Catechism and then get back to me about the Catholic faith <<

You are free to believe whatever you want about the Pope, but not to pass it off as Roman Catholic theology when it's not. I could claim Baptists accept baptizing infants because I do, that wouldn't mean they do.

I have several copies of the Cathechism, and none of them use terminology like you're using, such as describing the Pope as "merely a senior bishop", "first among equals" or "equal with the Bishop (Patriarch) of, say, Moscow".

If you spoke an expert scholar in the Greek Orthodox Church or Serbian Orthodox Church, however, they'd certainly see the Pope and his role in Christendom the way you do. That's because you are preaching Orthodox Christian theology, claiming it's Catholic, and reacting angrily when everyone else on this thread, including protestants, point out that your belief about the Pope's role in the Church does not follow Catholic teaching.

The Orthodox and Catholic views of the Pope are NOT the same. If the Catholic Church did see the Pope in the way the Orthodox Church did, as "merely a senior bishop and first among equals", the schism between the two churches would be resolved and they would have reunited a long time ago. They won't because they have very different ideas about what the Pope's role in Christendom is. Your beliefs are line with how the Orthodox Church views the Pope. If you don't believe me, feel free to sit down with an Orthodox scholar and discuss it. I think you'll find that you two are on the same page.

In contrast to you and the Orthodox Church believe, the Cathechism of the Catholic Church describes the Pope and his role as follows:

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter's successor, "is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful." (Lumen gentium 23) For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered. (Lumen gentium 22; cf. Christus Dominus 2, 9.)

37 posted on 05/13/2013 7:08:45 PM PDT by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: MarkBsnr
>> Do not accuse me, even indirectly about the role of priests in the Eucharist, of having a belief anywhere near what you have posted. I am in the process of putting together an intermediate school religious ed program (over 3 years) that is based entirely on the Catechism. And the Biblical quotes that it is based on. Do not lump me in with Wiccan Gaia worshipping lesbian nuns on a bus, or Marxist socialist rabble rousing 60s priests. <<

I certainly did NOT accuse you of having the same beliefs as Gary Wills does about priests and the Eucharist, or of promoting "Wiccan views, Gaia worshiping lesbian nuns, or Marxist socialist rabble"

In fact, when one freeper said you might be a closet protestant, I pointed out that that's unlikely to be the case, and you probably disagree with protestants on a number of major theological issues.

I simply pointed out that Gary Wills calls himself a good Catholic, while preaching doctrines that are wholly protestant, and trying to portray them as in sync with Catholicism. You appear to be preaching doctrines that are wholly Orthodox, and trying to portray them as in sync with Catholicism. THAT is where the similarity lies.

Obviously, many Orthodox Christian theologians do not have liberal theological beliefs or believe in "Wiccan worshiping Gaia lesbian nuns". On the contrary, many of them have profoundly conservative theological views are are very old school. I believe Orthodox theology hasn't changed much since the 8th century. Certainly a good argument can be made that their beliefs about the Pope can be traced back to early Christianity. What CANNOT be said though, is that the idea that the Pope was merely "first among equals" is something that Catholicism ever taught, or how the Pope and the Vatican ever viewed themselves.

38 posted on 05/13/2013 7:26:54 PM PDT by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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