Posted on 05/12/2013 5:55:26 PM PDT by narses
You've been corrected on your error regarding [Acts 15] now a couple of times. If it's your choice to remain in your anti scriptural position.............so be it. But I, for one..... am tired of hearing your false doctrine. Go tell some one else!
No; I have not.
Declare victory and leave the field of battle.
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The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell. |
I think I'll go with Scripture, instead of Spin.
DAng!
That darned ol’ letter doesn’t even MENTION circumcision!
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
What do you suppose it was that these Pharisees (from the Jerusalem Church) [Acts 15:5] were telling these poor adult, male, Gentile converts? Hmmm?
Acts 15:1]And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[Acts 15:19] Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Just what was it that you suppose was troubling these poor, adult, male, uncircumcised Gentile converts?
James said basically............,"Tell them not to worry about going under the knife anymore because we have now reconsidered their requirements to enter the Church.....but, be sure and tell them about the Halakhah Laws [Leviticus 17 & 18] which guided the Israelites and Moses in their dealings with the Gentiles."
It was tacit understanding by the council that they would not honor other gods; have no graven images; would not take Yahweh's name in vain; would remember the Sabbath day; would honor their parents; would not kill anyone; would not adulterate themselves; would not steal; would not lie....and keep themselves from coveting.
Why do you think a plaque (or and image) of the Ten Commandments appear in (or on) just about every public Law building in the U.S.A. if they were done away with by James in 49 A.D.?
Of course, your pitiful understanding of Yahweh and His law prevents you from answering this..........intelligently.
Now.........you can huff and puff your way around this simple to understand concept with your "Main Stream" revisionism of things......but folks (Lurkers) can see right through it.....and the fact that James obviously concluded that these converts would continue in their understanding and learning of Torah by attending weekly Sabbath services......is so succinctly pointed out.
It must be terrible to be so unaware of things............
I feel no need to post the LETTER once more - as it speaks for itself.
My mind is NOT troubled by the things you've said.
You've answered your own question:
...just about every public Law building ...
Poor Elsie - so damn dumb and unteachable.
Romans 2:14a
The first sabbath wasn’t on a Saturday.. it was on the 22nd day of the 2nd month per exodus.. then it would lead it to be the next would have come on the 29th22nd of that month as commanded by God. Then the new moon would dictate the first day of the next month... 8th, 15th, 22nd and 29th of each month determined by the moon (not like our sun calendar today) .... and the sabbath will move on different days of the week if we are truly following His word... problem is, the sabbath could be on a few Tuesdays in our ‘traditional’ days of week within a ‘tradional’month.. tough to ask off these days when churches temples govts have chosen Saturday or Sunday (or friday for Muslims)... our 5 day work week isn’t from God. Nor is our calendar... We have all been deceived about the Sabbath... when you search this out and discover it on your own, what would you do? Keep His Sabbath or your churches? Your govt? Your temple? Your false prophets? Not an easy question as we have been conditioned to mans calendar ....His Sabbath will occur on Saturdays and Sundays and Fridays and etc.... now let every one wrap around that concept...
I have studied this idea in some middling detail - But I rejected it, primarily because Judaism, despite it's faults, has kept a record all the way back to the 2nd Temple period (the time when Yeshua walked the earth). At the time of the 2nd Temple, as today, the Sabbath was honored in a weekly fashion on the seventh day. Since Yeshua honored that day, and provided no correction, I can reasonably assume that this is certainly one thing the Jewish tradition has correctly transmitted.
Equally problematic is that the only day the Jews have named (for time immemorial) is the seventh day - 1st day, second day, third day [...] sixth day, Sabbath Day. This reinforces the weekly count as a continuing and unbroken thing.
And finally, wrt the Prophecy, if the days were reset at the beginning of each month, it becomes virtually impossible - nay, flatly impossible - to determine that the prophecies were (and are being) fulfilled so very precisely as they obviously have been fulfilled. IOW, the Prophecy works according to the moon cycle of months in determining months and years, but requires the fixed week and the determination of days in order to calculate regardless of calendar.
And one can extrapolate the problem of 'resetting the week' into the Prophecy itself - What does one do with a 'prophecy of weeks', wherein the weeks are a determination of '7 year groups' if weeks reset? How can they be calculable in that case? In fact, they can't, but they are calculable (the numbers physically work) if the uninterrupted succession of weeks remain.
[...] our 5 day work week isn’t from God. Nor is our calendar..
Oh, I am well aware of that.
We have all been deceived about the Sabbath
I heartily agree - But the deception is Sunday, not the Seventh Day. You are welcome to try to convince me, but the Prophets stand in your way - The Prophecy is my thing, and is finally the proof that YHWH is God, and it is beautiful how perfectly it works - to the very day... to the very hour. I doubt entirely that your method can trump that.
And those Jews didn’t celebrate Passover on the correct day either. They mushed Passover and Feast of unleavened bread together....14th and 15th are two separate days two separate appointed times but they seem to be smushed by the religious leaders... let me ask you plainly.. if they can’t get the messiah right, how accurate are they with anything? and would I trust them on anything if they missed that whopper of a miss? and choose to follow their man made traditions? it is not easy to deal with the fact that organized religion has screwed with Gods laws and appointed times detailed in His word... was Sunday called Sunday back then or maybe days were probably counted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, preparation, sabbath? I don’t know that.... but I know the bible tells me traditions of men are easily assumed over the commandments of God.. my Savior warned me about them... I don’t expect people to change their traditions.This was a relatively new revelation for me.. and man, it rocks your world... because little easter celebrations and christmas celebrations really get screwed up when you really search the Word... placing our traditions over what the bible says and how those chosen people without cell phones or calendars knew how to tell what day they were in a month was because God told them. because everyday looks the same with the sun.. it is supposed to rock your world.. If it doesn’t, then we have our reward and we can enjoy our traditions.(even if they arise from a Jewish heart) For some its christmas. For some it will be the fall feasts... for some, probably some saint will be venerated this coming Sunday.... my opinion means nothing though... search the Word ... that first sabbath was an eye opener. Some have a job they cant ask for these days off.. or it will mess with their vacation or schooling.... sometimes ignorance is bliss... but knowing is always eternally rewarding....
I think you misunderstand - the fourteenth is the Day of Preparation for the Feast of Unleavened Bread. On this day, every mote of leaven is removed from every house and the entire city. It is also the last day of the Inspection of the Lamb for Passover - and the day upon which the Passover lamb is slain and cooked. In that evening (which begins the 15th) is the Passover meal. Unleavened Bread continues for a whole week, so the two are naturally 'mashed together'.
I don't know how that could be different.
let me ask you plainly.. if they can’t get the messiah right, how accurate are they with anything?
Because they are blinded in order that the gentiles can be let in - Do not disparage our Jewish brothers. The Christians have done no better. And there is much to learn from Jewish culture: For instance, Understanding the Hebrew wedding is the most eye-opening proof of the rapture that there is. Understanding the workings of the Temple will seriously advance your knowledge of the Sacrifice and Resurrection, and Yeshua's role as High Priest.
One must be careful there too - The Jews altered the Holy Days too - When they were made to leave the land, they could no longer see the new moons at Jersalem, to the Rabbis changed the days to conform with the equinoxes... so the Jewish calendar is certainly off in comparison to the Biblical mandates (the new moon, IF the barley is ripe, is the new year). One can assume to know the start of each month, but it isn't perfect, because there is a two-day window... so each month can certainly be off too.
was Sunday called Sunday back then or maybe days were probably counted 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, preparation, sabbath?
The days we know were assigned by Rome, and are named after Roman gods, after the pagan fashion... As far as YHWH is concerned, the days are 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, Sabbath.
I know the bible tells me traditions of men are easily assumed over the commandments of God.. my Savior warned me about them... I don’t expect people to change their traditions.This was a relatively new revelation for me.. and man, it rocks your world...
I know, right? It certainly turned me upside down, to be sure.
because little easter celebrations and christmas celebrations really get screwed up when you really search the Word...
YUP. And more importantly, it detracts precisely away from the days that should be celebrated. The Holy Days are prophetic. Yeshua's birthday was most certainly the Feast of Tabernacles... And his death was certainly upon the Day of Preparation, at the same time the perfect lamb was being slaughtered at the Temple. How much more rich the tapestry if one discards the traditions of men, and finds the meaning of the Days that YHWH ordained? And shall you see then the work of YHWH coming to pass in the days yet to come? The Bible says yes:
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
(e-Sword:KJV)
First Passover was on Abib 14, the lambs were killed between the evening s of the 13th and 14th.... the Destroyer came at midnight on the 14th.not the 15th.. the 15th the next evening began the thin bread feast because they were traveling... Like I said, the Jews of our Messiahs day were smudging those two distinct days... what are you to do on the 14th if you eat lamb on the 15th? .. our savior celebrated the Passover perfectly on abib/Nisan 14 which was 24 hours before those Pharisees with their leaven... what is Passover on the 15th commemorating when the miracle of Passover event occurred at midnight on the 14th? if the lambs were killed on the 14th in the evening, wouldn’t that be the 15th by sunset/sunrise day count? If the Jews in Egypt waited till the 15th to eat their lamb, they perished with the Egyptians as Passover was the midnight the day before.
Absolute Balderdash!
I am at a loss as to why this simple chronology gets so screwed up!
Midnight of the 14th would be approximately six hours after the 14th began (at the sundown of the 13th). The Hebrew, "Beyn ha Arbayim" indeed means, "Between the Evenings". But the evenings both occur on the same 24 hour "Hebrew" day!
The Hebrews observed two "evenings" everyday. The first at high noon when the sun was "Even" overhead and the second when the sun was "Even" on the horizon....just before it set. Let's read the biblical proof for this:
The phrase itself appears in more than a few locations in the Hebrew.....and here are the passages that pertain to the Passover: [Exodus 12:6][Leviticus 23:5][Numbers 9:3-5][Numbers 9:11]. The proof text is [Exodus 29:38-41]:
Young's Literal Translation:38‘And this [is] that which thou dost prepare on the altar; two lambs, sons of a year, daily continually; 39the one lamb thou dost prepare in the morning, and the second lamb thou dost prepare between the evenings; 40and a tenth [deal] of fine flour, mixed with beaten oil, a fourth part of a hin, and a libation, a fourth part of a hin, of wine, [is] for the one lamb. 41‘And the second lamb thou dost prepare between the evenings; according to the present of the morning, and according to its libation, thou dost prepare for it, for sweet fragrance, a fire-offering, to Jehovah: —
The daily sacrifices were done to honor Yahweh....and they were done daily. That means.....two sacrifices per day....not one in the morning and another after the sun went down because that then.....would not be occurring on the same day! Daily continually means both... the same day!
Josephus [Wars, Book VI, Chapter IX, Paragraph 3] Snip: So these high priests, upon the coming of that feast which is called the Passover, when they slay their sacrifices, from the ninth hour till the eleventh, but so that a company not less than ten (33) belong to every sacrifice, (for it is not lawful for them to feast singly by themselves,) and many of us are twenty in a company, found the number of sacrifices was two hundred and fifty-six thousand five hundred;
From the ninth hour to the eleventh hour would be 3:00 P.M. (afternoon) until 5:00 P.M. just before sunset! Scripture validates two sacrifices per day; Josephus validates the same thing and the Hebrew language itself verifies the concept of two separate evenings each day.
The observance of Passover began on the sunset of the 13th when the Hebrew day was now the 14th [Leviticus 23:5]. The preparation (the deleavening process began immediately) and by the next afternoon (still the 14th) the lambs were slaughtered for the Feast. I realize that it is difficult for many to understand that the following afternoon could still be the same day.....because they are so used to starting their days at midnight. Stop and think about how much better Yahweh's method really is.
He begins the day at sunset because that was what occurred first originally....darkness [Genesis 1:2]. The daylight came next. If you observe the Greco/Roman method you have 6 hours of darkness, 12 hours of daylight and 6 more hours of darkness to complete the cycle. Stupid!
The lambs were then eaten after the sunset of the 14th as the 15th began [Leviticus 23:6]. Here's how they were eaten:
[Exodus 12:8-11] 8And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 10And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 11And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover.
They were to eat it with Unleavened Bread and bitter herbs. That's why it's called the Feast of Unleavened Bread.....and it's eaten on the 15th (that night)! The destroyer (angel of death) [Exodus 12:29] came that night (the 15th) because we are told in [Numbers 33:3] that it was the morning after the Passover (this would be the 15th) that they left Egypt. Here's the passage:
3And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
Passover was the 14th (sundown to sundown). The Feast was the 15th (sundown to sundown)......and they left Egypt that very day of the Feast, the morning after they had eaten the lamb which was slaughtered between the evenings (noon and sunset of the 14th) and eaten after the sunset of Passover during the early hours of the 15th.....before midnight when the destroyer came and Pharaoh finally agreed to let them go [Exodus 12:31-32]! PHEW!
Exotic 12:6 and ye shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month :for then all the multitude of the congregation of Israel shall kit at even...
Don’t open till christmas.. you don’t wait all day and then just before day ends you open up the gift!!! They waited till the 14th STARTED.. they had to consume in one night because by next night (15th) they were traveling... so the destroyer passed over on Nisan / abib 15?
Lev 23: 5 in the first month and in the fourteenth day of the month in the evening shall be the Passover of the Lord.
6: and on the fifteenth day of this month shall be the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days thou shall eat unleavened bread.
Great swamis - how do you reconcile Leviticus in the torah?
There is only one evening on the 14th.... and that is at the ending of the 13th.. Leviticus pretty clear for both days to be important to our Creator...
could it be that the 14th was only to be celebrated in the evening and then the next full day of 15th, the feast of unleavened bread? (starting at the end of the 14th )was a full holy Sabbath day? All leaven didn’t need to be out of the house until the 15th correct? There would then be a full 12 hours (daylight) on 14th to remove all the leaven..
The reason why the Jews miss the Messiah and miss the Holy Spirit is because they miss the Passover and Pentecost... they celebrate the Passover a day late... the Lamb of God died on the 14th was placed (consumed) in the tomb that same day.scriptures tell us that.. unless you are not a believer than it all makes complete sense to me...
it was dark when He was slain(supernaturally so) at 3 PM (is that when the slaughter began with the lambs? How do I reconcile ‘in the even’ with 3 PM?)..
Scriptures tell us that. Gives no reason why it was supernaturally dark..(maybe because Nisan 14 darkness occured 12 hours earlier and the chief priests missed it)
He rose on Nisan 16 , the first day of the week as Scripture tells us...
maybe God was using the wrong calendar or off by one day or is it you are also still waiting for Elijah at your Passover meal?
See The Word became flesh and dwelt among us and fulfilled all of the spring feasts and will fulfill all the fall feasts too.that first Passover is rather important key... you miss that, you miss the blood of the Lamb and forgiveness of your sins...
What you have just read is from the Literal Hebrew. The words are "Beyn ha Arbayim".....". It does not mean sunset; it does not mean dusk; it does not mean night time! It means "Between the Evenings"!
Here is the Hebrew transliterated:
wəhāyâ lāḵem ləmišəmereṯ ‘aḏ ’arəbā‘â ‘āśār ywōm laḥōḏeš hazzeh wəšāḥăṭû ’ōṯwō kōl qəhal ‘ăḏaṯ-yiśərā’ēl bên hā‘arəbāyim
There is a Hebrew word for night and a Hebrew word for day. The word used in [Numbers 33:3] is the word for daybreak!
[Numbers 33:3] And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all the Egyptians.
On the morrow: (Strong's #4283) "mochorath" the morrow or (adverbially) tomorrow
Yahweh had already told them they must stay in their homes until the morning after the Passover:
[Exodus 12:22] And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
Now.......you can fool some folks with your "Main Stream" revisionism of the Hebrew language, but you cannot fool others. It would behoove you to look into this deeper...... as you are leading folks astray.
They waited till the 14th STARTED.. they had to consume in one night because by next night (15th) they were traveling... so the destroyer passed over on Nisan / abib 15?
They did not begin to travel until the morning of the 15th [Numbers 33:3]. Let's check the passage in Exodus:
[Exodus 12:21-22]Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover. 22And ye shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the bason, and strike the lintel and the two side posts with the blood that is in the bason; and none of you shall go out at the door of his house until the morning.
The Passover is killed on the 14th [Leviticus 23:5]. You've already been shown the time from both biblical sources as well as secular sources. So....to continue to ignore this proof is just silly....and stubbornness on your part. C'est la Vie!
The feast is on the 15th [Leviticus 23:6] and then the destroyer comes.........
[Exodus 12:29-30]And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle. 30And Pharaoh rose up in the night, he, and all his servants, and all the Egyptians; and there was a great cry in Egypt; for there was not a house where there was not one dead.
[Exodus 12:23-24]Forthe LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite you. 24And ye shall observe this thing for an ordinance to thee and to thy sons for ever.
From Hebrew Historian, "Alfred Edersheim"...... "Ordinarily it [the evening sacrifice] was slain at 2:30 P.M., and offered at about 3:30 P.M. (page 174, updated edition..... The Temple: Its Ministry and Services).
Now.............here's the sequence....one more time. The Passover begins at the sunset of the 13th. The deleavening process and preparation begin that night (the 14th). The lambs are killed the next afternoon (still the 14th) between the evenings (noon and sunset). The Feast is then eaten at the beginning of the 15th (right after sunset). It consists of the lamb, bitter herbs and unleavened bread.
Moses then was told by Pharaoh (after midnight and the visitation of the destroyer) to get out of "Dodge". They left in the morning of the 15th [Numbers 33:3] after daybreak (on the morrow).
The biggest problem folks have in understanding the chronology is....of course the mistranslations of major works like the King James...etc.
The Hebrew word "evening" does not describe the night time. It describes the afternoon. The translators were not aware of this because the word "ereb" (evening, even) is defined.....as the sun going down.
To the Hebrew ignorant King James people this meant....sunset or dusk. But simply ask yourself a question......(thinking like a Hebrew). When does the sun go down? We need to also ask.....when does the sun go up?
The sun starts going up at sunrise and stops going up at noon. Conversely....the sun begins going down at noon and finishes this movement as it descends below the horizon at sunset. This entire period of time (noon to sunset/Hebrew "ereb") is called the evening. The plural "ereb" is "arabayim".....designating at least two! The King James people were confused about this and that's why many different translations will say "dusk; sunset; evening; twilight...etc". They just did not understand that the entire afternoon period to the Hebrews was called "Evening" and each side of "Evening" had an "Even"....one at noon and the other at sunset.
“kill it in the evening–that is, the interval between the sun’s beginning to P.M. decline, and sunset, corresponding to our three o’clock in the afternoon.” (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Commentary, Exodus 12:6)
Think about it for a while. When did they kill your savior? Was it at the ninth hour [Matthew 27:45-50][Mark 15:33-37][Luke 23:44-46]? Was the ninth hour actually 3:00 P.M.? Sure it was! The Hebrews only had watches during the darkness [Matthew 14:25][Mark 6:48][Luke 12:38]. They began counting the hours at sunrise......so the ninth hour would have been around three P.M.
Got anything to add...........?
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