Posted on 05/23/2013 10:47:09 AM PDT by NYer
Ping!
later digestion
bkmk
Aren’t we quibbling about the in gathering of the tribes of Israel v the in gathering of the tribe of Judah, as it is all but impossible - or at least very difficult - to separate today’s Jews into tribes? What we do know is that Jews from all corners of the world have relocated to Israel and that to me is a “gathering.”
I don’t think they do, IMHO.
But Jews do not include all of Israel, only the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin that comprised the southern kingdom of Judah after the breakaway of the ten northern tribes who formed their own kingdom under the name of Israel.
Very interesting. I look forward to the continuation.
‘Jews’ are actually B’nei Yisrael (Sons of Israel) officially. The term Jew is a kind of nickname, unless it means of the tribe of Judah.
I’m unaware of any reference in the Jewish Bible to the ingathering of Yehudim to the exclusion of other tribes.
Chrstians begin with the assumption that J*sus is messiah and then retroject that into the Hebrew Bible. And because this belief is fundamental (even before the authority of the Hebrew Bible) it is irrational and apparently not susceptible to any argument whatsoever. Ask a chrstian to prove or justify their claim and all they do is repeat the dogmas, as if they were self-affirming, self-proving, and self-evidently true.
In fact, some chrstians only accept the Hebrew Bible because they think J*sus "authorizes" it.
For those who believe Jesus was the Son of God, no proof is necessary,
For those who won’t, no proof is possible, written or not.
“Chrstians begin with the assumption that J*sus is messiah and then retroject that into the Hebrew Bible.”
Joseph Ben Uziel, 30 years before the time of Christ, in his paraphrase of Isaiah 9:6:
“The prophet said to the house of David, For unto us a Child is born, unto us a Son is given, and He has taken the law upon Himself to keep it. His name is called from eternity. Wonderful, The Mighty God, who liveth to eternity, The Messiah, whose peace shall be great upon us in His days.” (The Chaldee paraphrase on the prophet Isaiah [by Jonathan b. Uziel] tr. by C.W.H. Pauli)
It seems that Jews, at least THESE days, come from the assumption that Jesus is not the Messiah, and therefore they reject the plain teachings of the Holy Scripture. The Apostles did not argue from any assumption, they argued from the scripture.
Act 8:30-35 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? (31) And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him. (32) The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: (33) In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. (34) And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? (35) Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
I’d rather stick to the scripture, than all the flaky teachings of Judaism that are popular today.
A bit of a stretch based upon what-the Talmud??? Not much different then getting a theological view from a Chick Track. They to talk about Rome. ;O)
What’s up with this article? It purports to be something about showing the Messiah from the scriptures, and yet there isn’t even one sentence in there that discusses any of the ancient prophecies concerning Him.
Torah, flaky? Not to me.
When disciples of Jesus put their arguments in writing, Jews were lost to them.
As long as the evangelization was done by charismatic preachers with clever oral arguments, all was well. Put those arguments in writing, able to be studied and compared, and no educated Jew could go along.
Thus the appeal to pagans to keep the budding institution alive.
They also believe that Yah'shua taught a new and different message. That is because many "christians" believe in three gods
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
They believe Yah'shua is a new god. 6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
“Torah, flaky? Not to me.”
Don’t twist what I say. I didn’t say Torah. I said their teachings, specifically their teachings about the Torah. For example:
From the Zohar, Chapter 6, Portion Noach “If Adam had not sinned, he would not have begotten any offspring.”
35.
Come and behold: if Adam had brought generations with him from the Garden of Eden, they would have lived for generations. And the light of the moon, WHICH REFERS TO THE LIGHT OF MALCHUT, would have never been darkened. And all would have lived forever; and not even the angels above could have stood before them and borne their light, brilliance and wisdom. As it is written: “In the image of Elohim He created him” (Beresheet 1:27). But because he was the cause of the sin, he had to leave the Garden of Eden and bear children outside. So his generations did not last BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT FIT.
Rabbi Chizkiyah then asked: How could they have begotten offspring there IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN? Had the Evil Inclination not been drawn down on him and he sinned, he would have dwelled alone in the world and would have not begotten any offspring! The same applies to Yisrael; had they not sinned by the golden calf and drawn upon themselves the Evil Inclination AFTER ACCEPTING THE TORAH, they also would have never borne any offspring, and no new generations would have come into the world. The main point is that the power of mating derives mainly from the Evil Inclination. So without the Evil Inclination there can be no offspring.
He said to him: Had Adam not sinned, he would not have borne offspring from the side of the Evil Inclination, but he would have borne them from the side of the Holy Spirit. But because he produced offspring only from the side of the Evil Inclination, all the offspring of mankind are born from the side of the Evil Inclination. They have no permanent existence therefore, because the Other Side has been mixed with them.
But if Adam had not sinned and had not been driven out of the Garden of Eden, he would have begotten offspring from the side of the Spirit of the holy of holies. And they would have been as the supreme angels, and lived generations upon generations as angels do above. THIS MEANS THAT THERE ARE TWO KINDS OF MATING: ONE IS THE SPIRITUAL MATING OF THE ANGELS; THE SECOND IS THE MATING OF YESOD FOR THE SOULS. THAT NEED FOR THE EVIL INCLINATION RELATES ONLY TO THE MATING OF YESOD AND NOT TO THE SPIRITUAL MATING THAT COMES FROM THE SIDE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. But because he sinned and begot children outside the Garden of Eden and he did not merit to beget them in the Garden of Eden, therefore they did not survive even only to take root in this world until Noah came and went into the ark. And from the ark all descending generations of mankind emerged and spread to all four corners of the earth.
Lots of people assume that Judaism, as a whole, is just about the Old Testament scriptures. The problem is in the other material they use to interpret the Old Testament scriptures, wherein we find blasphemous teachings about the nature of God, letters with magical powers, reincarnation, the divinity of man, and fable upon fable.
I’d rather stick with the plain words of the scripture. Here’s the Gospel summarized:
Isa 53:1-12 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? (2) For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. (3) He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. (4) Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. (5) But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. (6) All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (7) He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. (8) He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. (9) And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. (10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. (12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
“That is because many “christians” believe in three gods
They believe Yah’shua is a new god.
They also believe that Yah’shua taught a new and different message.
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
shalom b’SHEM Yah’shua HaMashiach”
His “shem”, the word translated name, refers to his essential character, not just a name in the western sense. He is literally the Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, and so forth, and not just a mere name. It describes him perfectly.
On the phrase ‘Everlasting Father’ From Barnes’ commentary:
“The everlasting Father - The Chaldee renders this expression, ‘The man abiding forever.’ The Vulgate, ‘The Father of the future age.’ Lowth, ‘The Father of the everlasting age.’ Literally, it is the Father of eternity. ;by ad. The word rendered “everlasting,”’ad, properly denotes “eternity,” and is used to express “forever;” see Psa_9:6, Psa_9:19; Psa_19:10. It is often used in connection with ôlâm, thus, v’ed ôlâm, “forever and ever;” Psa_10:16; Psa_21:5; Psa_45:7. The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor. The phrase may either mean the same as the Eternal Father, and the sense will be, that the Messiah will not, as must be the ease with an earthly king, however excellent, leave his people destitute after a short reign, but will rule over them and bless them forever (Hengstenberg); or it may be used in accordance with a custom usual in Hebrew and in Arabic, where he who possesses a thing is called the father of it.”
The phrase, therefore, does not say that the Father is named the Son, despite still being the Father.
I'm not big into mysticism. Though I do appreciate the numerical nature of Biblical Hebrew. But that's another story.
Perhaps religion is what we make of it. I'm Noahchide, or try to be. I've always thought it amusing that a pew mate at a conservative synagogue I attended for awhile commented to the rabbi that, "He's more a Jew than I am." A good feeling I admit. Though the past few years I've become an essentially solitary observer...which can lead to some controversial areas of interpretation. Yet God is always in them....
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