“The fate of non-believers is relevant only when discussing the “hell thing” with non-believers hostile to Christianity.”
I don’t base my theology based on what non-believers find offensive or not. If I did, I’d be Joel Osteen.
“It throws them off when They say Christianity believes in a god that will torture you for ever and ever if you refuse to believe.”
It is the Holy Spirit who effectually calls and reveals Christ to the unbeliever, not the outward calling by preachers, who are merely the tools of God.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Unless God chooses to reveal Himself to the sinner, there is no way that the sinner, no matter how much you water down Christianity, will ever come to the Lord and Savior. Instead of trying to find ways to make the Gospel more appealing to a world that hates it, I’d be more focused with preaching the Gospel exactly as it was delivered. Those who preach a false Gospel are in danger of hell fire:
Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: (7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
“And no, the eternity thing does not work both ways.”
Of course it does. Look at the scripture:
Mat 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (42) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: (43) I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. (44) Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? (45) Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. (46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
To the sinner, everlasting punishment. To the righteous, life eternal. The same word is used in both instances.
“Even john 3:16 says one”
To perish is to go to a place where you will suffer eternally and your “worm dieth not.”
Mar 9:42-44 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. (43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: (44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
“Yes, their fate is eternal.”
Their torment is eternal:
Rev 14:10-11 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
I gave you the links I did because they argue every single point you made. They were also scripture I had in my head when I first read a serious argument against eternal suffering. I’m surprised you didn’t bring up Lazarus and the rich man.
Based on your comments outside this particular issue, I can tell that you and I agree on more than we disagree. It seems that we have this one point of disagreement.
But I referred to the links I gave because there is no need for me to argue what has already been argued. It’s all there.
And I agree that the eternal thing works both ways. But I am amazed how often we all ascribe meanings that are not really there. An example is the worm not dying and the eternal lake of fire. In one case it is discussing the worm consuming you and in the other it is discussing the fire consuming you.
I see it like this: The butcher we use to butcher our cattle has been in business over 100 years. If I say to someone that I am taking my cow to be butchered at the butcher that lasts a hundred years, it doesn’t mean my cow is being butchered for 100 years.
And if I throw an old newspaper into an everlasting fire, it doesn’t mean my newspaper is consumed for eternity. It means the FIRE is everlasting, but the newspaper is instantly consumed.
If I paint a fence white for all eternity, it doesn’t mean I am physically painting the fence for all eternity. It means I take as long to paint it as the reader would expect (taking into account the size of the fence, etc.) and it STAYS WHITE for all eternity.
The use of eternity regarding the fate of those that do not accept Christ is saying their condition is final. There will be no second chance.
The Bible famously uses plain language to communicate. Jesus came in the flesh as our perfect sacrifice. The bible also makes it clear that we can know He understands our plight, having been in the flesh and exposing Himself to all of our temptations. Yes, he even got erections on a daily basis when He left puberty. He is, after all, fully God and fully man.
God uses the word “death” to describe the fate of the non-believer over and over and over again. Everybody knows what that word means. It is simple language. It took a bunch of religious leaders to expand on that meaning to try to scare people into “becoming Christian”. It short circuits the very message you point out in your post.
The punishment spoken of is death - the second death. It is everlasting punishment because those that receive it are NOT coming back. But they are not alive. The reason is simple: alive and dead are opposites. And the bible is clear that they have not received eternal life. They have received eternal death.
They die and they STAY DEAD.
Ecclesiastes covers it pretty well. I don’t read it in parts. I only read it all at once. A very powerful message there.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
Sorry, but no matter how much you philosophize, you cannot “interpret” away something that is clearly taught.
And the thing is, I agreed with the “turn or burn” doctrine as long as I just took other men’s word on it. Once I studied it, I did a complete 180, and a lot of the challenges I was having with it got crystal clarity.
Same thing happened with Pre-Trib rapture. I was AG and that is what I was taught. I accepted it for the same reason, though I had some questions that didn’t generate any good answers from my teachers. After studying the subject at length, I became “mid-trib”, or what is now called “pre-wrath”.