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To: BroJoeK

The Edict of course did not have these divisions in mind because they were important only to the Christians involved. As to the principle of religious liberty as we understand it, this would have been foreign to the Romans. Madison understood the Romans, but his views would have been incomprehensible to the Romans. Furthermore, Madison was not so “conservative” about matters of religion as some seem to believe. He never grasped where the deism of the early French revolutionaries was leading their country, a quick evolution from state Christianity to atheism. and the spreading of such policies and attitudes wherever French armies prevailed. The same path taken by the Russian Revolution from 1917 onwards.


253 posted on 06/14/2013 1:11:15 PM PDT by RobbyS
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To: RobbyS
RobbyS: "The Edict of course did not have these divisions in mind because they were important only to the Christians involved."

So you agree that the Edict of Milan had nothing specifically to do with Arians or Donatists, except to grant them the same religious liberty as everyone else?
Indeed, I'm not so certain if the Edict of Milan had anything to do with Emperor Constantine.
In hindsight, it seems quite out-of-character for him.

RobbyS: "As to the principle of religious liberty as we understand it, this would have been foreign to the Romans.
Madison understood the Romans, but his views would have been incomprehensible to the Romans."

Sure, "religious liberty" as a principle may have been beyond most Romans, but in practice, Romans tolerated a very wide variety of religions, just so long as they met basic minimum standards.
Religions which openly practiced human sacrifice, for example, were not tolerated.
And the Romans did require, in addition to worshiping your own gods, that you acknowledge the Emperor as a deity.

That was a big problem for both Jews and Christians.
So Jews negotiated a deal, to pay a head-tax (around $100 in today's values) in exchange for no Emperor worship.
Christians couldn't & wouldn't pay such a tax, and so were often persecuted.

Indeed, in the eyes of your typical Roman administrator, if you paid the head-tax, then you were a good Jew, but if not, then you were a stinkin' Christian.
And that's really what it was all about, from the Roman Empire's perspective.

RobbyS: "Furthermore, Madison was not so “conservative” about matters of religion as some seem to believe.
He never grasped where the deism of the early French revolutionaries was leading their country, a quick evolution from state Christianity to atheism.
and the spreading of such policies and attitudes wherever French armies prevailed."

First, I think you mean Jefferson, not Madison, since Jefferson was there at the beginning of the French Revolution (1789), and mistook it for a carbon-copy of the American Revolution.
Madison did not come to France until as Secretary of State under Jefferson (circa 1802), long after Napoleon seized power.

Second, while nearly all US Founders had some religious affiliation, very few could be considered seriously religious.
Among the more actively religious, the names of George Washington and John Jay come to mind, both Anglicans.
But there were also many Presbyterians, Congregationalists and Quakers, along with some Catholics, Lutherans and Unitarians.
They all clearly understood the principle and necessity for religious freedom.

Third and by stark contrast, the French Revolution was a very different matter.
There centuries of state-imposed Catholic religion resulted in a Revolution and Reign of Terror which attempted to destroy not only the old state, but also the aristocracy and Church necessary to maintain it.
These were not events that Jefferson or Madison anticipated.

RobbyS: "The same path taken by the Russian Revolution from 1917 onwards."

I have long argued here that the Russian Revolution took the course it did only because the Communist Bolsheviks -- Lenin -- were backed financially and otherwise by Germany, which used the Revolution to take Russia out of the First World War.
In short, the Communist Revolution was, in effect, just another military assault on Russia by Germany.
Without such backing (and/or with more support from Britain & France for Democrats), Lenin's party was unlikely to have been so victorious.

Anyway, your comparison anti-Christian actions of the most radical revolutionaries in France of 1793 to those in Russia of 1917 is apt.
In both cases they persecuted and murdered Church officials who supported the old royal regime.

255 posted on 06/15/2013 2:43:18 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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