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To: ckilmer; HarleyD

“I defined “free will” as the choice to sin or not to sin.

My understanding is that before Jesus people had to sin.

After Jesus believers can choose—and have to ability to choose— to sin or not to sin.”


I’d becareful with a conclusion like this. Paul himself suffered greatly from the sin nature still present in his members (as do we all):

Rom 7:14-15 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. (15) For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

There is also no sense in this (just to clarify) that we can choose to commit the sin of unbelief, as Christ is quite clear that all those who belong to Him “will come” to Him.

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The work of God on our hearts, turning our stony hearts into a fleshy heart, is not an imperfect work on His part. It is not a choice on God’s part that can backfire really badly. This regeneration gives to us a heart that, by the infallible will of God, “shall come to [Him]” no matter what. And though we go through our fits, our losses, and our failures, yet God works in us “both to will and to do,” and so orders the events in our lives, that we are always brought back to His throne to confess “I did not choose you, you chose me, and ordained me, that I should bring froth fruit, and that my fruit should remain.” But this new regeneration does not imply that we are free of our sin nature, or that we are guaranteed perfection in knowledge, or perfection in even our good works. What it does guarantee is that:

Rom 8:28 ... all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.


10 posted on 06/01/2013 7:17:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; ckilmer
ckilmer-“I defined “free will” as the choice to sin or not to sin.

GPH-I’d becareful with a conclusion like this. Paul himself suffered greatly from the sin nature still present in his members (as do we all)

Exactly. Our wills, while they may be "free" from sin and death, are corrupt. We still will not follow God or, worst yet, we construct idols or false doctrine that we justify as following God. Peter warns us not to suffer as a murderer or gossiper. Non-Christians sees our hypocrisies and question whether Christianity is real, not understanding this foundational truth-that we are all corrupt. And this isn't helped by repeating that we have "free will" and Christians decide to follow Christ. The most obvious response is why don't we follow Him then? We are repeatedly warned as Christians that our hearts are deceitful. They cannot be trusted.

We must continue to reexamine if we are in the faith. Not that we lose our salvation but that we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling to ensure that we bring glory to the Father. We cannot bring glory to the Father by following our wills. We can only bring glory to the Father by doing the Father's will, abiding in Christ, and being led by the Spirit. The simple fact that we want to follow our wills is the dilemma of the Christian.

It isn't that we willfully do the things of God for which He is happy. He has put His Spirit in us to walk in His steps. So it is expected of us to walk as Christ walk-exactly as Christ walked. Yet we quench and grieve the Spirit constantly. We want to follow our wills which are against God's will. As you so rightfully pointed out, Paul states this when he tells us, "Wretched man, who will save me from this..."

But the bright note on this is that God understand this. As Paul finishes, "...thanks be to God through Jesus Christ...". All Christian take comfort in this verse:

It is He who is working in us to His work and will. Like Jonah, we may run to Tarnish but God will bring us back to Nineveh to do His will. This is the great love the Father has for us. Thanks be to God that He is forever faithful. He chasten and hasten us, so that He works to conform us to Christ's image. Those who the Lord loves, He reproves. He leads us into paths of righteousness for His name sake. It is this principle for which we should give thanks.
11 posted on 06/02/2013 3:04:48 AM PDT by HarleyD
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