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To: HarleyD; Greetings_Puny_Humans; ckilmer
“Free will” implies that we can freely choose to live a life like Christ on our own volition. This is heresy. If one has the power to freely choose to follow Christ, 100% of the time, why don’t they? The answer to that question alone should tell one that free will does not exist.

I'm afraid I'm too old to be interested in the kind of scholastic argumentation we used to bat around in grad school which bore little relation to the struggles of our lives, serving only as a vehicle to show that we were more clever and "had a better grasp of theology" than the other guy.

The one thing I will add is that one must not understand "free will" in the absolute, Greek sense of omnipotence. Obviously we do not have the ability to jump over the moon, regardless of whether we should "will it to be." The proper description, perhaps, is that we possess a genuine "freedom to choose."

It is, in my view, beyond arguing that, from Genesis to Revelation, we (the human race) are commanded to choose: e.g. "Choose this day whom ye will choose" and a myriad others. This ability to choose is not absolute, but it is real, and the choices we make will determine our eternal destiny.

Any school of theology which attempts to deny this fundamental truth of Scripture and of our existence is, again, in my view, false.

As rightly pointed out on this thread, there exists a paradox between Divine Sovereignty and "free will" (freedom to choose). I cannot pretend to understand how the two work together in the world and in our lives: for that understanding we must await the next world.

20 posted on 06/02/2013 12:16:11 PM PDT by tjd1454
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To: tjd1454; HarleyD; ckilmer

“I’m afraid I’m too old to be interested in the kind of scholastic argumentation we used to bat around in grad school which bore little relation to the struggles of our lives, serving only as a vehicle to show that we were more clever and “had a better grasp of theology” than the other guy.”


To be honest, this is a statement that is not all that far removed from the “smug communicants” whom you say populated Calvinist Europe. Not everyone has gone to grad school, and certainly the Gospel was not meant to be batted around by bored graduate students who regard Gospel truths as mere “argumentation.”

This is certainly not how Spurgeon, whom you started off praising, would have handled this topic; in fact, he would have regarded such a dismissal of Gospel doctrine on the basis of it having “little relation to the struggles of our lives” to be quite offensive. If the great truth of the scripture is that no man can receive anything except it is given from above, it should be preached on the streets and in every church till the crack of doom.

And as for the “struggles of our lives,” instead of building a Dr. Phil theology around such worldly troubles, let us build our theology around God and “take... no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.”


26 posted on 06/02/2013 1:23:00 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: tjd1454; Greetings_Puny_Humans; ckilmer
I'm afraid I'm too old to be interested in the kind of scholastic argumentation we used to bat around in grad school which bore little relation to the struggles of our lives

It doesn't surprise me. Most people aren't interested in "scholastic argumentation". How juvenile. Once upon a time people were interested in understanding and applying sound doctrine. Augustine was so shocked by his erroneous teachings that he recalled most of his writings and had them burned. Councils were convene to ensure accurate teaching and to highlight heresy. Luther risk everything, including his life, for correct teaching. So did John Hus, Calvin, and Wycliffe.

Today this attitude has gone by the wayside. In our socialization of Protestant Christianity, which started with Finney, it's all "YAWN", "YAWN". No more councils on heresies. No more "arguing" the scriptures. You have your beliefs and I have mine. People want to believe what they want to believe. It's no different than the Samarians who thought they could worship God wherever they wanted-they didn't need the temple. That was a relic of the past and who care what the scriptures stated. During Jeremiah's time they were prophesying in God's name while idols sat in the temple. God loves us-right? He's going to fight for us-right? That was the message they taught. After a time, the corruption of the scriptures take hold and no one really care how far they have drifted.

People on a number of occasions have stated to me that I'm completely wrong on free will. But yet they'll say they don't understand the paradox. One has to wonder if they don't understand, how do they know I'm wrong? But at the risk of sounding arrogant, there is no greater truth that I know than this-that free will is a lie of the worst sorts. Of course, then again, all I did was read the arguments handed down by the fathers.

27 posted on 06/02/2013 1:23:22 PM PDT by HarleyD
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