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To: Viennacon; albionin
To summarize the case -
1) The universe exists
2) Governed by natural law, everything that exists has a cause or a ‘beginning’
3) The universe has a beginning
You only have two explanations for its existence. One is that it appeared from nothing, which defies logic. The other is that a transcendent cause brought it into being.
The only transcendent cause that makes sense is an unembodied mind. God.


Two problems:

1. Nothing in nature is "governed" by "natural laws." What we call natural laws are our characterizations of regularities we believe we observe given our scope of observation both in terms of time and extent. We hypothesize that what we see during our period of observation and within our neck of the woods is a fundamental characteristic throughout time and throughout the universe (the term 'universe' begs the question). We hope that what we think we observe is actually something "out there," existing as a property of nature. Still, it would be a property of nature not something that somehow directs or governs so-called natural processes.

2. God is posited to exist but to exist without beginning or cause; therefore, "natural" is just a definition meaning, "something that exists which has a beginning or a cause that lies outside itself." This is true when speaking of some "thing" or "event" within nature, but doesn't necessarily apply to nature as a whole because if nature really is all that there is, then it has no antecedent cause, there logically existing nothing else that can effect it, and, therefore, must be self-existent; the same property imputed to God, the main difference being that self-conscious self-existence is usually referred to as God and non-conscious self-existence is usually referred to as nature, though there is a spectrum of beings in either direction being called God or nature or something in between or something emerging from one into the other. Either being, as an uncaused causer either of the conscious or non-conscious variety, has been said by many over the millennia to defy logic or understanding, though Calvin seems to think he had it all nailed down. Poor schmuck.
73 posted on 06/12/2013 9:12:32 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

There is no “out there.”


84 posted on 06/12/2013 1:20:03 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
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