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Msgr. Pope ends with the following request:

I know many of you who read here are learned in Greek, Latin, the Fathers, and scripture scholarship and I am interested in your thoughts. This article is incomplete and has not covered every possible facet of the argument. I leave that you, all who wish to comment.

If you fit the category, please post your comment to Msgr. Pope's blog.

1 posted on 06/21/2013 2:44:12 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 06/21/2013 2:44:36 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: All
Abwoon D'Bashmaya - The Lords Prayer in Aramaic

Aramaic is the language spoken by Jesus and the Apostles. Hebrew, at that time, was the liturgical language of the Temple.

3 posted on 06/21/2013 2:48:12 PM PDT by NYer ( "Run from places of sin as from the plague."--St John Climacus)
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To: NYer

I am in the “inclusive” category — sustenance for the day, the strength, wisdom, and wherewithal to persevere, and the gift of the Bread of Life.


7 posted on 06/21/2013 3:05:12 PM PDT by twister881
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To: NYer

Typo - problem solved.


10 posted on 06/21/2013 3:15:31 PM PDT by Last Dakotan
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To: NYer
The Souter`s 1916 translates it as:

"from ἡ ἐπιούσἄ [ἡμἐρἄ], 'belonging to the morrow'

Webster 1887: "morrow [ME, morwe,morwen, fr. AS, morgen] 1. Archaic. Morning "

ERGO, belonging to the morning [?]

breakfast?

morning mass?

dunno

13 posted on 06/21/2013 3:20:49 PM PDT by bunkerhill7 (("The Second Amendment has no limits on firepower"-NY State Senator Kathleen A. Marchione.))
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To: NYer

When people view this from their human point of view, they are confused, as described above. But if they view it from faith in God’s point of view, “our daily bread” is completely sufficient, because we are asking for God to supply our needs as He sees fit, and allowing Him to be in charge of what those needs are, as only He can completely know. We certainly don’t know. We may think we know; but that’s not the same as what He knows.


19 posted on 06/21/2013 3:40:25 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Remember... the first revolutionary was Satan."--Russian Orthodox Archpriest Dmitry Smirnov)
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To: NYer

I think it is just about our daily sustenance or living. Nothing magic about it. For instance “Man shall not live by bread alone” where bread means our regular meals.


20 posted on 06/21/2013 3:43:45 PM PDT by yarddog (There Are Three Things That Remain--Faith, Hope, and Love--and,the Greatest of These is Love..)
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To: NYer

“give us this day the needs of the body.”


21 posted on 06/21/2013 3:55:01 PM PDT by februus
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To: silverleaf

ping for later


33 posted on 06/21/2013 4:54:09 PM PDT by silverleaf (Age Takes a Toll: Please Have Exact Change)
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To: NYer

Manna is the first thing to spring to my mind after reading through this. Manna from heaven, from the Lord above, superlative, bread, morning, it fits the known meanings of the apparent root words. Greek would lack a means of describing something that was apparently difficult to describe for those with direct exposure. Then, there’s the long association of manna with communion or the “Eucharist.”


36 posted on 06/21/2013 5:05:35 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: NYer; a fool in paradise
epiousion

I wonder if anyone has used this word as the name of a hi tech company?! Or an anti-depressant? Web domain name?

39 posted on 06/21/2013 5:20:41 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: NYer
Here's an extended quote from Origen:

Seeing that some suppose that it is meant that we should pray for material bread, their erroneous opinion deserves to be done away with and the truth about the needful bread set forth, in the following manner. We may put the question to them—how can it be that He, who says that heavenly and great things ought to be asked for as if, on their view, He has forgotten His teaching now enjoins the offering of intercession to the Father for an earthly and little thing, since neither is the bread which is assimilated into our flesh a heavenly thing nor is it asking a great thing to request it?

For my part I shall follow the Teacher's own teaching as to the bread and cite the passages in detail. To men who have come to Capernaum to seek Him He says, in the Gospel according to John, Verily, verily, I tell you you seek me not because you saw signs but because you ate of the loaves of bread and were filled . . . for he that has eaten and been filled with the loaves of bread which have been blessed by Jesus seeks the more to grasp the Son of God more closely and hastens toward Him.

Wherefore He will enjoin: Work not for the food that perishes but for the food that abides unto life eternal which the Son of Man shall give you. And when, upon that, they who had heard inquired and said: What are we to do that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them: This is the work of God that you believe on him whom He has sent. As it is written in Psalms, God sent His Word and healed them, that is the diseased, and believers in that Word work the works of God which are food that abides unto life eternal.

And my Father, He says, gives you the true bread from heaven, for the bread of God is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. It is true bread that nourishes the true man who is made in God's image, and he that has been nourished by it also becomes in the Creator's likeness. What is more nourishing to the soul than Word, or what more precious to the mind of him that is capable of receiving it than the Wisdom of God? What is more congenial to the rational nature than Truth? Should it be urged in objection to this view that He would not in that case teach men to ask for needful bread as if something other than Himself, it is to be noted that He also discourses in the Gospel according to John sometimes as if it were other than Himself but at other times as if He is Himself the Bread. The former in the sense of the words: Moses hath given you the bread from heaven yet not the true bread, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. In the latter sense, to those who had said to Him Ever give us this bread, He says: I am the bread of life: he that comes unto me shall not hunger, and he that believes on me shall not thirst; and shortly after: I am the living bread that is come down from heaven: if anyone eat of this bread he shall live unto eternity: yea and the bread which I shall give is my flesh which I shall give for the sake of the life of the world.

Now since all manner of nourishment is spoken of as bread according to Scripture as is clear from the fact that it is recorded of Moses that he ate not bread and drank not water forty days, and since the nourishing Word is manifold and various, not all being capable of nourishment by the solidity and strength of the divine teachings, He is therefore pleased to offer strenuous nourishment befitting men more perfect, where He says:

The bread which I shall give is my flesh which I shall give for the sake of the life of the world: and shortly after: Except you eat the flesh of the son of Man and drinks His blood, you have not life in yourselves. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath life eternal, and I will raise him up in the last day. for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. He that eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him.As the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so also he that eats me—he too shall live because of me. This is the true food, Christ's flesh, which being Word has become flesh, as it is said And the Word became flesh. When we eat and drink the Word He tabernacles in us.

(Origen, On Prayer)


47 posted on 06/21/2013 7:09:58 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: NYer
Can a non-Catholic offer an opinion? ... Here goes:

we humans have something no other life on earth ahs, a spirit. For that spirit to be alive we must have spirit life in our human spirit. But God has shown us that oonly by the cleansing of the Mercy Seat can our human spirit have THE Life in our human spirit. That Life is 'epiousion' dependent, and only through The Bread Of Life, Jesus, can we have that supersubstrantial life influx, by faithing in our daily walk, relying upon His life in us, the hope of Glory. [Like an Andy Rooney aside, I like using 'faith' as an action word, 'to faithe'. Now, if we can just get it straighten what the 'being born of water and of the Spirit' means ...]

51 posted on 06/21/2013 10:29:11 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: NYer; a fool in paradise

53 posted on 06/21/2013 10:35:28 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: NYer
I'm obliged to accept the Catechism's umbrella approach, but intuitively I want to go with St. John Chrysostom. To my ear, the emphasis on, "this day," and "daily bread," registers as both a literal and metaphoric supplication to be blessed with what we need, no more, no less.

I've often observed that when people are overwhelmed with pain and suffering, they find it very easy to fall to their knees and beg God not to give them any more than they can handle. Yet, during fat, happy and prosperous times, precious few people turn to God with the same prayer, even though, unbridled wealth and success are potentially greater dangers to the soul.

If one thinks of food as fuel, it also takes on the character of a commitment on the part of the supplicant. If I plan on expending a lot of physical, emotional and spiritual energy, (i.e. doing good works) I will need additional sustenance and nourishment; if I plan on sitting idle, I will need far less. Again, we ask for what is needed for us to accomplish what we must; no more, no less.

55 posted on 06/21/2013 11:54:25 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: NYer
I think Saint Jerome was correct.

ἐπιούσιον = supersubstantial = Holy Eucharist

56 posted on 06/22/2013 1:38:38 AM PDT by Dajjal (Justice Robert Jackson was wrong -- the Constitution IS a suicide pact.)
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To: NYer

Insight....Wisdom ?


59 posted on 06/22/2013 4:52:33 AM PDT by kanawa (FB...Save George Zimmerman from racial onslaught)
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To: NYer
From: HUGO(Larry's friend, a Lutheran scholar) Subject: Re: Pondering the Mysterious Word in the Lord?s Prayer No One Can Agree how to Translate Date: Thursday, June 27, 2013 3:29 PM  Epiousion. The writer is correct. There is no really adequate explanation of its meaning, and so it is debated from time to time. But some decades ago it was finally found among some papyrus manuscripts uncovered in Egypt--used as stuffing for a crocodile, if I remember right. The papyrus was a menu, probably from an ancient restaurant. So that seems to indicate that the translation "daily bread" is not far off. Of course, the English translation depends upon ancient translations in the Latin Vulgate, Syriac and other early versions of the Bible, and the men who translated them presumably knew it from daily use, even though it never found its way into lexicons or dictionaries. At least this is what I remember from Seminary days. Hope it helps. Hugo
65 posted on 06/27/2013 1:42:48 PM PDT by larryjohnson (USAF(Ret))
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