Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: xzins

“That atonement was for the entire nation, however, it was effective only for the faithful.”


But that’s not actually what your verse says. If the atonement is for the whole nation, then the whole nation would be forgiven. The atonement, by definition, covers up their sins. Therefore the atonement can only be for the faithful, and not for the faithless.

Now that I think about it, I don’t think we even disagree. Your problem, though, is in confessing the origin of faith, by which one is justified by the atonement. Which you did confess, actually, but you want to maintain the idea that somehow, when God gave you the gift of faith, that in some way that gift was earned by something you did.


40 posted on 06/26/2013 7:52:29 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies ]


To: Greetings_Puny_Humans
you want

Attributing motive to another Freeper is a form of mind reading. It is "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

49 posted on 06/26/2013 8:20:38 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies ]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; P-Marlowe
Hi, GPH. I appreciate the kind nature of this discussion. It is clear to me that this is the way Christians should discuss things.

I do agree with you that God grants the faith. He opened Lydia's heart. That one example is sufficient.

However, the offer is to all, and the atonement is for all. It is only those who respond who are blessed with the benefits of the atonement.

First, even you, I suspect, believe that the depraved, unregenerate human has free will. Correct? You would say that they do but that their depravity will have them always choosing evil instead of God.

However, can they resist God? Stephen seems to think so. "You always resist the Holy Spirit." is what he said to them, the Apostle Paul included, WHO WAS AT THAT MOMENT HOLDING THE GARMENTS OF THOSE THROWING STONES. (Acts 7: 51 "You stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised hearts and ears! You are just like your fathers: You always resist the Holy Spirit! 52 Was there ever a prophet your fathers did not persecute? )

Paul was brought into the fold by Jesus Himself,

Acts 9: 1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" 5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked. "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied. 6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do." 7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone. 8 Saul got up from the ground, but when he opened his eyes he could see nothing. So they led him by the hand into Damascus. 9 For three days he was blind, and did not eat or drink anything. 10 In Damascus there was a disciple named Ananias. The Lord called to him in a vision, "Ananias!" "Yes, Lord," he answered. 11 The Lord told him, "Go to the house of Judas on Straight Street and ask for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying. 12 In a vision he has seen a man named Ananias come and place his hands on him to restore his sight." 13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And he has come here with authority from the chief priests to arrest all who call on your name." 15 But the Lord said to Ananias, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel. 16 I will show him how much he must suffer for my name." 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord--Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here--has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized,

So, Stephen was not exactly correct in saying "always". When Jesus intervened, Paul received his "sight". And, it is possible that others in that stoning group that day were also eventually saved. We don't know. Paul is the only one mentioned.

Acts 26 adds some information (as does Acts 22):

15 "Then I asked, 'Who are you, Lord?' " 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,' the Lord replied. 16 'Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.' 19 "So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.

So, the sanctification follows the faith. And it appears that the repentence precedes or is at the same time as the "turning to God." Paul says that God commands ALL to repent.

Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28 'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29 "Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."

Acts 20: 20 You know that I have not hesitated to preach anything that would be helpful to you but have taught you publicly and from house to house. 21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

As Hebrews says: "1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Peter affirms this by saying that God wants ALL to come to repentance.

And in the order of salvation, repentance is separate from faith and apparently precedes it because Pauls says in 2 Co 7:10 "10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation."

This is consistent with Paul's teaching:

Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

Acts 20:21 I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.

So, repentance precedes faith, and repentance is Godly sorrow for violations of God's instruction.

And God's instructions are known to all: Romans 2: 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)

51 posted on 06/27/2013 7:32:33 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! True supporters of our troops pray for their victory!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson