Posted on 08/04/2013 11:14:42 AM PDT by ebb tide
I have a slight disagreement with the description of Pelagians. I submit, humbly that it is not grace that is within the power of humans but rather virtue.
We can avoid sin today. We can decide to follow a path of virtue for an hour, for a day, for a week, for a month. Pelagius had a list of biblical characters that he asserted were virtuous, to include the Virgin Mary, Enoch who was translated, Elijah, John the Baptist.
Grace is the gift of G-d. Virtue is the daily task of humanity. May G-d forgive my failure to be virtuous.
1810 Human virtues acquired by education, by deliberate acts and by a perseverance ever-renewed in repeated efforts are purified and elevated by divine grace. With God’s help, they forge character and give facility in the practice of the good. The virtuous man is happy to practice them. (CCC 1810)
“I have a slight disagreement with the description of Pelagians. I submit, humbly that it is not grace that is within the power of humans but rather virtue. We can avoid sin today. We can decide to follow a path of virtue for an hour, for a day, for a week, for a month. Pelagius had a list of biblical characters that he asserted were virtuous, to include the Virgin Mary, Enoch who was translated, Elijah, John the Baptist.”
This is, actually, Pelagian, or at best, semi-Pelagian, both of which were condemned by the “Doctor of Grace” this article briefly mentions; though, unfortunately, the RCC does not take the remedy the doctor offers, nor, more importantly, heeds the Apostles whom they claim to succeed.
Augustine observes, commenting on the scripture, that virtue is the product of the grace of God, with grace being the unmerited favor of God freely given. It (virtue) is not inherent in man, nor is it foreseen in man to be the reason for God’s election, but is rather the work of God predestinated (seen by Augustine as the “preparation of grace” for those unworthy sinners chosen from out of the world) before the world began, in order to make the elect holy and conformed to the image of the Son (the application of grace). Even the virtue of faith is itself the gift of God, and therefore does not proceed naturally from the rotten core of the unregenerate. As Augustine says for himself, with many scriptural proofs:
“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. But we say, say they, that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work. But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things.” Ephesians 1:11 He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” Romans 11:29 and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” Romans 9:12 (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” John 15:16 For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book 1, Chp. 38 — What is the View of the Pelagians, and What of the Semi-Pelagians, Concerning Predestination.)
To re-capitulate, Pelagianism holds “(i) that the sin of our first parents was not transmitted to their posterity; [Adam’s sin harmed only himself, not the human race, and children just born are in the same state as Adam before his fall.] (ii) that Christ came into the world, not to restore anything we had lost, but to set up an ideal of virtue, and so counteract the evil example of Adam; (iii) that we can, of our own natural powers, and without any internal assistance from God, [do good that is pleasing to God and thereby] merit the happiness of the Beatific Vision” (cf. Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine, Archbishop Michael Sheehan, p. 456). (iv) the Law of Moses is just as good a guide to heaven as the Gospel. Finally, (v) Pelagians considered death to be natural to man and not a consequence of Adam’s sin. So even if Adam had not sinned, he would have died in any case.
Interesting. IMO, the only people who defend Pelagius are those who seek to rehabilitate a historically heretical theology.
Princeton theologian B. B. Warfield considered Pelagianism "the rehabilitation of that heathen view of the world," and concluded with characteristic clarity, "There are fundamentally only two doctrines of salvation: that salvation is from God, and that salvation is from ourselves. The former is the doctrine of common Christianity; the latter is the doctrine of universal heathenism."See related threads:
-- from the thread Pelagianism: The Religion of Natural Man
I get the feeling some of the hostility to Pelagius was for straw-man argument, or wicker-man, considering his origins.
Those are some pretty useful links. Thanks for posting that.
I understand that some would condemn my poor attempts to be and do good. I do not believe that G-d is among those who would condemn someone for being and doing good.
“I understand that some would condemn my poor attempts to be and do good. I do not believe that G-d is among those who would condemn someone for being and doing good.”
God would certainly condemn even your “righteous” efforts, which though sparkling in your eyes are but filthy rags in His.
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
The only righteousness that can be grasped is that which comes by faith, by the imputation of the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ who did what we could not, the only one who ever lived a “good” life (Rom 1:17, Gal 3:11). Your works can in no way do anything for you, nor can you ever call yourself “good,” for only one is good, and that is God (Luke 18:19).
You can tickle yourself with your Pelagian vanities, but vanity is all they are in the sight of God.
I suppose you think it would be better to be a child molestor relying on the grace of the Divine.
I don’t. We differ on that.
“I suppose you think it would be better to be a child molestor relying on the grace of the Divine.
I don’t. We differ on that.”
What we actually differ on is the source of good works in the elect, who are taken from a state of profound rebellion, and quickened by the Holy Spirit, by whom the Father conforms us into the image of His Son, working in us “both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Php 2:13, Eph 2:1-5) You believe that you are virtuous in and of yourself, and that your works please God and merit heaven, when, in reality, no works done outside of faith is pleasing to God. “For whatsoever is not of faith is sin” (Rom 14:23).
If you really believe that you are “good,” and that this good arises from your own willing and working, and not God who works in you, then odds are you’ll burn right next to that child molester as the reward for your “good” works.
No, you assert that the child molestor who asks for grace will be saved. You claim you will have him next to you in heaven, while I will be in hell.
I suggest that if you are kind to the cruel, then you are cruel to the kind.
“No, you assert that the child molestor who asks for grace will be saved. You claim you will have him next to you in heaven, while I will be in hell.”
How about you try reading what I actually said instead of making false statements? Or, rather, what I endorsed?
Here, read it again, real slow:
“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. But we say, say they, that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work. But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things.” Ephesians 1:11 He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” Romans 11:29 and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” Romans 9:12 (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” John 15:16 For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book 1, Chp. 38 — What is the View of the Pelagians, and What of the Semi-Pelagians, Concerning Predestination.)
So, do I believe that the child molestor asked for grace to be saved? Or do I believe that God shows His favor on whom He will, and brings Him out of His sins through His effectual power, thus making a holy man out of a wretch? As Augustine puts it in another place:
“Those whom the Lord wills to be converted, He converts Himself; who not only makes willing ones out of them who were unwilling, but makes also sheep out of wolves and martyrs out of persecutors, transforming them by His all-powerful grace.” (Augustine, qtd in Calvin’s Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God, Section II)
And if that is my actual position, and if that is the position of the scripture, then “what hast thou that thou didst not receive?” (1 Co 4:7).
Your arrogance would be amusing if it weren't so insane.
Oh, I'm sorry - you don't dismiss the life of another human being and flip his soul into hell because of your own will and working to determine the truth of God and assume the power of judgement - no!
Rather, when you scorn another person and spit at their efforts to follow God's teachings, and teach that they are hell bound, why, that's God working in you, not your ego, not your own efforts. No, that's God's grace, the flow of Christ through your mind and your heart and your words and your scorn and your rejection and your caustic damning.
I spit at you.
“Rather, when you scorn another person and spit at their efforts to follow God’s teachings, and teach that they are hell bound, why, that’s God working in you, not your ego, not your own efforts.”
Yet it’s true, because unless you believe that Jesus is the Christ and shed His blood for our sins, no matter how good you think you are, you ARE hellbound. And it is my duty to break down all your false righteousness and self-made delusions which tell you that you can get into heaven based on your own righteousness, so that you rely on Christ alone for the righteousness that can come only by faith. Spit all you like, but the scripture condemns your theology.
How is anyone responsible for their choices?
“How is anyone responsible for their choices?”
The “responsibility” for the punishment of sin was taken up by Jesus Christ on the cross, whose perfect life and perfect sacrifice truly washed away all sin for His people. Thus, there is no place for works in salvation. Works, then, in their place, can only be worked in faith (in other words, for the glory of God, and not for ourselves, knowing that the battle is won by Christ already), and with both faith and works themselves being wrought by God.
The reprobate, on the other hand, though they do not receive it from God to believe, are yet condemned with Adam through original sin, and through their own additional sinning thereafter. Or as Augustine explains,
“Every sinner is inexcusable, either on account of his original sin and sinful nature, or else from the additional act of his own will, whether he knew that he was sinning, or knew it not; whether he had a judgment of what is right, or had it not. For ignorance itself, in those who will not understand, is undoubtedly sin; and in those who cannot understand ignorance is the punishment of sin.” (Augustine, qtd in Calvin’s Treatise on the Eternal Predestination of God)
But as for why God, not merely permitting that these people should be born and left in their own sins, but actively works in the world that they, individually and personally should be born, though they are doomed to die without the vivifying grace of God, the Apostle replies to those who bark against God for it:
Rom 9:20-21 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
And as Augustine explains it, “Who created the reprobate but God? And why? Because He willed it. Why did He will it? ‘Who art thou, O man, that repliest against God?’” (Ibid)
Seems you are saying that Adam is responsible and/or God is responsible for sin.
So in your own your words..
Take the child molester, how is he responsible? How can he be held responsible?
Perhaps I will be next to James who ‘by my works I show my faith.’
“Seems you are saying that Adam is responsible and/or God is responsible for sin. So in your own your words..”
I don’t know how I “seem” to say that, when I asserted with Augustine that the damned are condemned for their own sin. At best, I wasn’t clear, though your conclusion is still not founded on anything I said.
The difference between those whom God has mercy on, and those who have it not, is that in the former case God, through monergistic action, pulls them from a depraved state of mind and miraculously saves them. He puts His laws into their hearts, and causes them to walk in His precepts. Though they possess a will, it is a reformed will that, being given to them to believe, is changed so that they desire to believe in God (Jeremiah 32:39; Ezekiel 36:27; Hebrews 8:10; 10:16; John 6:64-65). This is the work of God from beginning to end. In the latter case, they are sinners already, justly condemned already by the death which passed down from Adam, (which God is fully just to condemn them with) with natures so depraved that they can do no good thing, and cannot even ascribe to themselves even the slightest of good things to themselves (Romans 3:12; 2 Corinthians 3:5). We do not teach that they do not have a will either, but that their will, not merely being prone to sin, is utterly subject to sin; and so mankind, in and of himself, is utterly worthless and incapable of coming to God aright. Not that God forces them to, but because they want to.
But if it be said that God is ultimately responsible, because He created these people, knowing full well they would be damned, and utterly ordaining that it would be so, when He chose to elect some and to pass them by, and then using them to accomplish His own purpose, as Pharaoh or Judas... well, that is a debate you have to have with God, and not me.
Pro_16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.