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“The verse tells you whom is “predestined” to be conformed....those whom God knew before hand. If you ask yourself, “who didn’t God know before they were born?” you will realize that God knew EVERYONE before they were born, therefore EVERYONE is “predestined” to become children of God. “

Ye know not the scriptures, which declare that Christ knows His Sheep, but doesn’t know the reprobate. “My sheep hear my voice,” saith Christ, “and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”(Joh 10:27-28). On the other hand, to the reprobate, Christ declares, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Mat 7:23).

This does not refer to His omniscience, but His knowledge in particular of who is and is not given to Him, which is in no way universal, nor does it have anything to do with man giving himself to the Son. It is the Father that gives, and all those whom the Father gives come to the Son.

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). So we see that none of the elect are ever lost or fail to come, since all those who are given by the Father do come to the Son infallibly. God does not merely ask and persuade, but actively “put[s] [His] law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be [His] people,” and again, God says, “I will... cause you to walk in my statutes” (Jer 31:33, Ezekiel 36:27, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16).

Christ constantly tells them that they do not believe, because it was not given to them to believe. To the Pharisees He says, “ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,” and then He adds, “as I said unto you” (John 10:26). Earlier He had told them that the sheep hear His voice, and He knows them. They are not here removed from Sheephood because they refused to believe, but because they were never sheep at all. To other unbelievers He says:

“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” (Joh 6:64-65)

If all receive it from the Father to believe in the Son, then it should have been said “My Father gave it to you to believe, but you refused His fair offer.” Or, at best, “I foreknew you would not receive what my Father gave you.” But instead Christ tells them, as an explanation for their unbelief, “no man can come unto me, except it were given... [by] my Father.” Plainly Christ here declares that it is given to some to believe, but not all.

And in still another place, Christ begins to pray for some, but not for all, saying “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine”(Joh 17:9). Now Christ could not have prayed only for those given to Him if the whole world was given to Him. His prayer should have been for the whole world, rather than just for those given to Him out of the world.

And in the very next verse of Romans that you quoted, it declares, (proving the falsehood of Salvation’s OP which declares an “incomplete” and a “complete” predestination,) that all predestination is complete. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Rom 8:30).

I’m sure there are many people who are in hell, who had either been removed from Judea in ancient times by thousands of miles, or who today live in various parts of the world who had never so much as even heard of any Gospel, who will be surprised to hear that they were called, justified and glorified.

In the very next chapter of Romans, Paul distinguishes even further from the “children of the flesh,” and the “children of promise.” Such a distinction in itself proves that not all are promised. He also removes any sense of the idea that salvation is based on conditions, rather than on the gratuitous choice of God to save one man, and not another.

“That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed... but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom 9:8-13)

Now Paul uses this to explain the nature of God’s election, that it is not based on the righteousness of the elect, but on the purely free mercy of God for one child over another. As he says himself, “not of works, but of Him that calleth,” proving that salvation belongs utterly to God’s selective call. This is the whole point of this passage, to show the gratuitous and sovereign choice of God, and that it is this choice which determines salvation. But if what you say is true, Paul should have written “not of works, but on him who believeth.” But lest you still beat your chest and say that faith is not ruled out as a condition for election, a little further Paul says “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy” (Rom 9:16). What is willing if not to believing? And what is running if not works of righteousness? But, again, if what you say is true, it should have said “it is not of God who runneth, or God who willeth, but of him that believeth.” And immediately responding to the inevitable complaint, “Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?” since the inevitable logic is that those whom God does not choose are left out. Paul, instead of correcting his misapprehension, confirms the truth of election and attacks the unbeliever for his impertinence, saying, “Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?” (Rom 9:19-20).

Now as for the will. Not even Augustine, who was the champion of what you would call “Calvinist” doctrine, did away with the will. After all, those whom the Father gives to the Son, come to the Son with faith. And those who are not given to the Son, are left in their wretched and depraved state. Being dead in their sins, they are not held off by God as if they tried very hard to believe but couldn’t. They simply do not want to believe, of their own choice and will.

“My sheep hear my voice,” saith Christ, “and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”(Joh 10:27-28). On the other hand, to the reprobate, Christ declares, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity” (Mat 7:23).

The word for “know” or “knew” is the Greek word ginosko which means “to learn to know” or “come to know.” Jesus can’t learn to know us until we humble ourselves and accept Him as Lord. These verses don’t contradict the fact that God/Jesus FOREKNEW of everyone and has provided for everyone a chance to accept Jesus.

“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out” (John 6:37). So we see that none of the elect are ever lost or fail to come, since all those who are given by the Father do come to the Son infallibly.

The key to this verse is knowing that the Greek words for “come” (as in “shall come to me”) and “cometh” (as in “him that commeth to me”) are different. The word for “shall come” is heko which essentially just means to have come or arrived. The word for “him that cometh” is erchomai which means a number of things. One is “to come” and another is “to follow”. So this verse very simply means that the Father brings people to Jesus, but those who choose to “follow” will in no wise be cast out.

God does not merely ask and persuade, but actively “put[s] [His] law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be [His] people,” and again, God says, “I will... cause you to walk in my statutes” (Jer 31:33, Ezekiel 36:27, Hebrews 8:10, 10:16).

This is AFTER a person has made a commitment for Jesus, not before.

Christ constantly tells them that they do not believe, because it was not given to them to believe. To the Pharisees He says, “ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep,” and then He adds, “as I said unto you” (John 10:26). Earlier He had told them that the sheep hear His voice, and He knows them. They are not here removed from Sheephood because they refused to believe, but because they were never sheep at all.

They aren’t sheep because they didn’t believe at that point. Nobody is Jesus’s sheep until they believe. The verse doesn’t prove what you think it does.

To other unbelievers He says:“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” (Joh 6:64-65)

All this says is that it is impossible to come to Jesus without the Father, but it doesn’t say that anyone is prevented from coming to Jesus by the Father. This just reinforces that we can’t come to Jesus by our own effort or work, which I agree with.

If all receive it from the Father to believe in the Son, then it should have been said “My Father gave it to you to believe, but you refused His fair offer.” Or, at best, “I foreknew you would not receive what my Father gave you.” But instead Christ tells them, as an explanation for their unbelief, “no man can come unto me, except it were given... [by] my Father.” Plainly Christ here declares that it is given to some to believe, but not all.

No, it doesn’t “plainly” state what you read into it. Christ does declare that a person has to be “given by the Father” or led by the Spirit of God to come to Christ, but it most certainly doesn’t say that not all people are led to Christ or given a chance to believe. You just have an idea that you want to impose on Scripture, so you read it that way. Now that could also be said about me, so what the observer needs to do is search Scripture themselves, and pray about it and not take my word or your word or anyones word as the end all. The only WORD that is the end all is Scripture, which is God’s Word.

And in still another place, Christ begins to pray for some, but not for all, saying “I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine”(John 17:9). Now Christ could not have prayed only for those given to Him if the whole world was given to Him. His prayer should have been for the whole world, rather than just for those given to Him out of the world.

That verse still doesn’t say anything which would contradict that all people have a chance at salvation. All it illustrates is Christ prayed for different things at different times. Sometimes I just pray for my family and not anyone else, but that doesn’t mean that I couldn’t adopt someone else in the world into my family. Same with Jesus. Also this verse occurs when Jesus is praying before going to the cross. His prayer is at this time is specifically about the apostles. Surely you aren’t suggesting that only the apostles were given to Jesus. That’s a mighty small number in Heaven then and it would exclude you and me.

And in the very next verse of Romans that you quoted, it declares, (proving the falsehood of Salvation’s OP which declares an “incomplete” and a “complete” predestination,) that all predestination is complete. “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Rom 8:30). I’m sure there are many people who are in hell, who had either been removed from Judea in ancient times by thousands of miles, or who today live in various parts of the world who had never so much as even heard of any Gospel, who will be surprised to hear that they were called, justified and glorified.

Romans 8:30 is expanding on Romans 8:29. Verse 29 says that all whom God foreknew (everyone) has a chance at a destiny with God. Verse 30 is expanding on the last part of 29 which talks about those who chose God or the “first born amoung the brethern.” So if you accept Christ THEN you are justified, and glorified.

In the very next chapter of Romans, Paul distinguishes even further from the “children of the flesh,” and the “children of promise.” Such a distinction in itself proves that not all are promised. He also removes any sense of the idea that salvation is based on conditions, rather than on the gratuitous choice of God to save one man, and not another. “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed... but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” (Rom 9:8-13)

You are really confusing things here. Paul was talking about the difference between Jews and Gentiles. Before Jesus, the Jews had a unique relationship with God, but after Jesus, ALL have the same opportunity for a relationship with God. It is true that salvation isn’t because of your race but because of your choice to believe in Christ through faith. NONE of Romans 9 proves that only some are saved and others are born with no hope of salvation.

Now Paul uses this to explain the nature of God’s election, that it is not based on the righteousness of the elect, but on the purely free mercy of God for one child over another. As he says himself, “not of works, but of Him that calleth,” proving that salvation belongs utterly to God’s selective call.

There is no evidence that the call for salvation is selective. In fact the opposite is true.

Romans 10:13 “WHOSOEVER shall call upon the name of the Lord, SHALL be saved.”

This is the whole point of this passage, to show the gratuitous and sovereign choice of God, and that it is this choice which determines salvation.

I disagree. While I agree that no one can come to Jesus on their own knowledge or power, that they have to be called by the Holy Spirit/Word of God, I believe Scripture shows us that all are called, but not all accept the call. Those who accept the call are the elect. I accept all of what Scripture says and I don’t believe it needs to be altered to show what I believe is already there.