Posted on 09/14/2013 12:29:44 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
John 3:14-18 doesn’t necessarily support the “faith alone” position.
For Protestants, John 3:14-18 might seem like the ultimate “Gotcha!” passage to use against Catholics. But if you look a little deeper, you’ll recognize that the passage does not defend the “faith alone” position and is totally in line with Catholic teaching.
The passage reads as, “‘As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.’”
That might seem a little damning to the Catholic position that good works are necessary, right? Well, in truth, it’s not.
With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service. This is evidenced later in the chapter. John 3:36 reads as, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
And if one looks at verses 19-21 of the chapter, they will see that Christ said that those who “love darkness” and do “evil deeds” will not reach “the Light” (Heaven).
Sin — which, at its heart, is anything offensive to God — is a heinous, damaging thing that we must cleanse ourselves of. This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him. It requires a repentant heart (see Luke 13:3) and, in the case of mortal sin, sacramental confession (see my video about Confession).
On top of all of this, Christ told us in John 13:15 to follow the example that He set and He also told us — in John 15:10 — that we must keep His commandments to “abide in [His] love”.
We can’t just sit back and relax non-stop, counting on our vague “faith” to save us — we have to do things! Like St. Paul wrote in Colossians 1:24, we must help the Church in “filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions.”
So, when reading the Bible, remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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Click here to watch the accompanying video.
Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Watching videos on my computer is too tedious a process. If you have anything to say, I’d appreciate it if you posted it in the thread, in text form, for all to see and understand. But as for the Catholic view of grace, they treat it like a magical substance which they do indeed merit by their works.
The essentials of the gospel are simple and need no extended theological arguments...
1. Hear the Word
2. Believe the Word
3. Repent your sins
4. Confess that Christ is the Son of God
5. Be baptized for the remission of your sins
The New Testament lays this process out it in an easy to understand format. No need for endless debate. The story is there. If you don’t believe it then you reject it. End of argument!
They so desperately want to trust their works. And if their works fail them, they think they”ll burn off the rest of their sin debt in purgatory. But as it says in Jude, they’ve “gone the way of Cain.” They don’t understand the way of salvation that was made plain from Genesis forward.
Like ethnic Israel of old, “they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (Romans 10:2-3)
“Salvation is of The Lord.” (Jonah 2:9)
“...born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.” (John 1:13)
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
One would have to ignore the whole of scripture to arrive at such a position. Romans 4, Titus 3, Galatians, Ephesians 1-3, Phil. 3.
Catholics have to mis-translate the verse to make a point.
No, God provides and also does it.
You cannot cleanse yourself. This is only done through the purity of Christ.
That might seem a little damning to the Catholic position that good works are necessary, right? Well, in truth, it’s not.
It is damning to your Catholic religion until you guys get your hands on it and pervert what it says...
With God, to believe means to obey. God does not desire a lukewarm, vague belief in Him, but a devoted life in His service.
What are you doing perverting God's scripture???
Gal_1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Believe
πιστεύω
pisteuō pist-yoo'-o
From G4102; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), that is, credit; by implication to entrust (especially one’s spiritual well being to Christ): - believe (-r), commit (to trust), put in trust with.
To believe on means to entrust...
John 3:36 reads as, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
The verse does not say that at all...Why are you again perverting God's words...What is your agenda???
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
You even pervert your own Catholic Douay-Rheims bible:
36 He that believeth in the Son hath life everlasting: but he that believeth not the Son shall not see life: but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Sin — which, at its heart, is anything offensive to God — is a heinous, damaging thing that we must cleanse ourselves of. This cleansing is done through Christ, of course, but meriting it requires a little more than a belief in Him. It requires a repentant heart (see Luke 13:3) and, in the case of mortal sin, sacramental confession (see my video about Confession).
More perversion...
Do you not even know what REPENT means???
Repent
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.
Repentance is not to do something to clean ourselves...It is impossible to 'clean' ourselves...
Repentance is to change the direction of your heart and mind toward God...There are no works to repentance...
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God is watching you corrupt his bible...
“Verses supposedly supportive of “faith alone” in Romans 4 (and all of Romans) simply denounce the Mosaic Law (video that covers that here), Titus 3 will be addressed in an upcoming video (stay tuned for that), Galatians 2 is addressed here, Ephesians 2 is addressed here, and Philippians 3 is addressed here.”
I don’t bother to watch videos due to technical reasons, but I’m sure most other people can’t be bothered to check out a bunch of random videos giving your YouTube channel hits. You would be better served presenting your full arguments on this forum. I do it all the time, even the same debate on multiple threads, against the Catholics.
What about the parable of the sheep and the goats and the whole “I was hungry, and you did not give me food to eat” . . . or does that one not count in your Bible?
PS, If it takes you more than 100 words to explain away the extraordinarily clear meaning of this extraordinarily brief passage you’re probably making excuses.
Very neat the you are discerning whether you are called to the priesthood. I’ll keep you in my prayers. A few of my kids friends from college are now in seminaries.
I have spent a lot of time among Evangelicals, and (leaving aside the fact that faith is a work) I have never met a group of more works-oriented Christians - not Reformed, not Emergent, and certainly not RCs.
Can anyone tell me truthfully what ‘works’ the thief did to be saved, other in the thief's incomplete and most likely limited understanding of WHO Christ was and what HE did.
The obvious answer is that there were no ‘works’ and while the thief may not have possessed the absolute, complete, and perfect truth of who Christ is/was, the thief at the very least did ask Christ to remember him (the thief) when HE (CHRIST) came into HIS glory.
God's salvation through Christ is not dependent upon good works but on the willingness to believe in Christ based upon what we recognize as the Godly Spirit in Him.
It is not an absolutely perfect understanding of every minute detail of Who Christ is but rather an understanding that alone Christ was sent by God the Father to provide the propitiation for our sins on the cross and is the only one anointed by the father to do so.
Christ and Christ alone is the sole mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 1:15) and there is NO other mediator or co-redeemer possible.
Indeed at the end when everyone is judged, there will be two thrones the worlds entire population will appear before, One is the judgment seat of Christ which is for the believers in Him and the other is the Great White throne of God the Father which is reserved for those who reject Christ.
The first judgment seat is for reward while the Great White throne is for condemnation. As the bible states, ‘He that has the Son of God HAS life while he that hath NOT the Son of God hath not life but the wrath abideth on him’. Please note that the word abidith declares a present and remaining state of being which is this case is eternal banishment from Christ and the Father.
I have read your catechism in its entirety, among a myriad of other Catholic works. I know precisely what Rome teaches. I also know that I live under the explicit anathemas of Trent.
Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but BELIEVES in Him who justifies the ungodly, his FAITH is reckoned as righteousness
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Excellent. This verse is surely the ultimate “gotcha” answer for all faith-plus-worksers.
I know, because I can read.
I can read, because I was taught to read by Catholic nuns, who knew how to teach.
However, I learned the way to salvation as an adult from Protestants!
Sola Fide!
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