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To: matthewrobertolson
And if one looks at verses 19-21 of the chapter, they will see that Christ said that those who “love darkness” and do “evil deeds” will not reach “the Light” (Heaven)....So, when reading the Bible, remember that true belief requires obedience and good works.

I would suggest a careful review of the text:

People love darkness rather than the light. Our works are evil. We cannot do good things simply because we don't want to do good things. As our Lord pointed out,

we do give good gifts to our children, but we are evil. It is beneficial for us to wake up to this fact rather then pretend it doesn't exist.

And we don't come to the light because our evil deeds will be shown to be what they are-evil. Not only will we not come to the light-we hate it. All our motives for doing things are self-centered and that's the way we like it.

Those of us who have come to the light have good works simply as evidence that we have come to God. Good works are for our reassurance and benefit that we have been saved.

As the scriptures clearly states:

Augustine correctly pointed out, we are saved to do good works. We don't do good works because we are saved. There is nothing we have that has not been given to us.

So no, it doesn't require obedience and good works. It requires repentance, submission to His word and prayer. God will produce the good works as He sees fit.

It may be best to read Augustine after reading the scriptures.

41 posted on 09/14/2013 3:23:38 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; matthewrobertolson

“Augustine correctly pointed out, we are saved to do good works. We don’t do good works because we are saved. There is nothing we have that has not been given to us.”


Indeed!

“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. “But we say,” say they, “that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work.” But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things”. (Ephesians 1:11) He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” (Romans 11:29) and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” (Romans 9:12) (although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” (John 15:16) For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 38)

“All our good merits are only wrought in us by grace, and -when God crowns our merits, he crowns nothing but his own gifts. (Augustine, Letter 194)

“Have just men, then, no merits? Certainly they have, because they are righteous. But they were not made righteous by merits. For they are made righteous when they are justified, but as the apostle says, they are justified freely by his grace.” (Ibid)

“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)

“For who makes thee to differ, and what has thou that thou hast not received?” (1 Cor. iv. 7). Our merits therefore do not cause us to differ, but grace. For if it be merit, it is a debt; and if it be a debt, it is not gratuitous; and if it be not gratuitous, it is not grace. (Augustine, Sermon 293)


42 posted on 09/14/2013 3:36:43 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: HarleyD
Your first point is flawed. The verse says "because their works were evil" ("their" referring to the "people [that] loved the darkness"), not because all works are evil. Therefore, to say that the verse means that "our works are evil" is quite a big stretch.

Question: How are we able to "give good gifts" if we are totally evil? Doesn't the ability to give good gifts indicate at least a small amount of inherent goodness?

You're missing the point of John 3:20. "For everyone who does wicked things" does not mean the same thing as "For everyone". In context, the verse sets a contrast between those who do "wicked things" and those who do good things.

You're also missing the point of John 3:21. It says that "whoever does what is true comes to the light". You're advocating the inverse of that -- the idea that we start out in the light before we do things. That contradicts the verse.

To understand Ephesians 2:10, you'll probably have to look at verses 8-9 in context (very short, straight-forward video on that here). We are given graces, yes, but these graces do not simply give us salvation, but enable us to do good works and to have faith so that we can do our part of the process.
98 posted on 09/14/2013 6:43:35 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
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