Posted on 09/15/2013 1:37:28 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
(This was originally shared here on AnsweringProtestants.com, as part of a longer post.)
There is nothing wrong with asking the heavenly saints to pray for us.
Many Protestants argue that asking the saints to pray for us is “unbiblical,” while throwing around verses like 1 Timothy 2:5. But they are incorrect.
1 Timothy 2:5 — the infamous “one mediator between God and men” verse — refers to salvation, not prayer. The verse reminds us that it is only because of the graces found through Christ (God Himself) that we are able to have any real relationship with God and reach Heaven. It does not, however, absolutely negate relations with angels or heavenly saints. After all, it was an angel (Gabriel) that spoke to Mary before Christ was conceived in her body, not God Himself.
I was raised in several Protestant denominations. They all placed a major emphasis on Christians praying for each other — which is encouraged in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 and other passages. I would contend that a saint, one who is holy and in Heaven with God, would have a lot more sway with God than a rebellious sinner on earth would.
To put that another way, if someone asked you to do something for them, would you not be more likely to help them if they were your best friend, as opposed to a complete stranger? Of course, you may very well be willing to do something for a complete stranger, but you would probably be more willing to do something for your best friend.
And there is evidence in the Bible of the saints praying to God.
“Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand.” – Revelation 8:3-4
The word for “saints” in that passage comes from the Greek word hagios. Thayer’s New Testament Greek-English Lexicon says that the best definition of hagios is “most holy thing, a saint”. This would seem to undermine the Protestant assertion that “saints” in this context can only refer to people on earth.
Now, what would the saints be praying for? Themselves? Doubtful. They are in Heaven, so they do not need anything, as eternal life with God is perfect. That really only leaves one option: they are praying for us. And because they are praying for us anyway, how could it be wrong to ask them to pray for us about something specific? It is like interacting with a DJ at an event. He’s playing music anyway, so what is the harm in asking him to play your favorite song?
Here’s my Scripture-based defense of the practice that should answer most Protestant objections:
Matthew 17:3-4 & Luke 9:28-31.
Moses and Elijah (who are clearly heavenly saints, not “saints” in the way Paul would sometimes use the word) are with Christ during the Transfiguration.
Revelation 6:9-11.
The martyrs can talk to God.
From those three passages, we can gather that the saints in Heaven interact with God.
Luke 15:10.
The angels and saints (who, in Luke 20:35-36, Christ says are equal to the angels) are aware of earthly events.
1 Timothy 2:1 & James 5:16.
It is good for Christians to pray for one another.
Now, if the saints interact with God and are aware of earthly events (and can therefore hear us), why wouldn’t they pray for us, considering that it is good for Christians (which the angels and saints definitely are) to pray for one another?
Revelation 21:27.
Nothing imperfect will enter into Heaven.
Psalm 66:18 & James 5:16.
God ignores the prayers of the wicked, and the prayers of the righteous are effective.
Because the saints have reached perfection (they are in Heaven), their prayers are more effective than the prayers of those that are less righteous, so that’s why one might ask them to pray instead of asking another Christian on earth or simply doing it themselves.
(All verses are from the NASB translation.)
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“Are you now saying you have the power of God?”
Nope.
But you claimed that the dead were dead, and now you seem to acknowledge that there are living Saints in Heaven, right?
ummm no, why do you keep going in circles? Why not stick with the topic of the thread?
Have a good evening.
Are you questioning whether God can raise people from the dead? You seem to be.
I'm not sure where you picked up this broad stereotype that non-Catholic Christians have some type of hierarchy over us that issues dictates as to what prayers we can and cannot say. Perhaps it is not clear to you that the Lord's Prayer was given, not as some canned prayer that we utter when we are unwilling to be real with God, but as a model or guide for prayer which can be summed up in a single acronym - ACTS.
Adoration
Confession
Thanksgiving
Supplication
Nope, you were the one who appeared to claim that only “the living Saints could pray for us. Odd that you are not keeping up here.
Have a Blessed sleep, may your Guardian Angel watch over you and may Our Lady and all of the Saints in Heaven pray for you.
My soul magnifies the Lord,
And my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
For He has regarded the low estate of His handmaiden,
For behold, henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
For He who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is His name. And His mercy is on those who fear Him from generation to generation.
He has shown strength with His arm:
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
and exalted those of low degree.
He has filled the hungry with good things;
and the rich He has sent empty away.
He has helped His servant Israel, in remembrance of His mercy;
As He spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to His posterity forever.
Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen
Magníficat ánima mea Dóminum,
et exsultávit spíritus meus
in Deo salvatóre meo,
quia respéxit humilitátem
ancíllæ suæ.
Ecce enim ex hoc beátam
me dicent omnes generatiónes,
quia fecit mihi magna,
qui potens est,
et sanctum nomen eius,
et misericórdia eius in progénies
et progénies timéntibus eum.
Fecit poténtiam in bráchio suo,
dispérsit supérbos mente cordis sui;
depósuit poténtes de sede
et exaltávit húmiles.
Esuriéntes implévit bonis
et dívites dimísit inánes.
Suscépit Ísrael púerum suum,
recordátus misericórdiæ,
sicut locútus est ad patres nostros,
Ábraham et sémini eius in sæcula.
Glória Patri et Fílio
et Spirítui Sancto.
Sicut erat in princípio,
et nunc et semper,
et in sæcula sæculórum.
Amen.
I saw it. Was there a point you were trying to make?
He doesn't play favorites.Favorites? I've never thought about it quite like that. I think Christ loves those He wishes to be saints, to a "higher" degree, though. That's why He supplies so much suffering for them. Could there be heavenly levels when we die?..... And unless one is able to pray and suffer their way to the top while on earth, could it be possible they'll only see Mother Teresa of Calcutta as she passes by on the "up" escalator... :)
Hmmm this is what we say about Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide.
As a Protestant, I have no idea what you just posted. I did go to Catholic elementary school but don’t recall the nuns teaching that in religion classes.
The more God loves people, the more He makes them suffer.
So if you're really suffering, it's a GOOD thing because it means God REALLY, REALLY loves you......
Wow, is that twisted thinking about God.
And unless one is able to pray and suffer their way to the top while on earth, could it be possible they'll only see Mother Teresa of Calcutta as she passes by on the "up" escalator... :)
Anyone who thinks that suffering and praying is currying favor with God and going to contribute to their salvation is NOT on the *UP* elevator.
Heh, I can think of my own things to say to God.
And even if I couldn’t, Romans 8:26-27, Romans 8:34, and Hebrews 7:25.
I have the Holy Spirit interceding for me according to the will of God, and Jesus is interceding for me as well.
And I should waste my time paying attention to a dead person who may or may not even be in heaven because nobody has been there and come back to verify anyway and I wouldn’t believe them even if they claimed it anyway?
Time spent praying to or focusing on anyone but Jesus or the Father, is time NOT spent praying or focusing on Jesus or the Father.
And it’s called *idolatry*.
That’s right. The prayers of the Saints — passing our prayers on to God the Father, Sohn and Holy Spirit.
There is a slight theological difference between a son of God and a child of God.
Jesus is the only begotten son of God.
I am a child of God, indeed. So are all who have faith in Jesus.
The book of John tells us that Jesus came and died for us, so that we could be covered in His blood, and we could be grafted into the family tree, even if we were Gentiles.
We have the full privilege of the Jewish adoption, which is why we can approach God with confidence and say , like Jesus says-”Abba” Father- please come to my rescue. And He will. Read the Books of Matthew and Romans.
Now you are talking living and dead. If you have faith in Jesus, you are a child of God, and you a saint, because we know there are no favorites in the Father’s house- we are equal- so you are then equal to a saint.
And if you think about it- a sinner saved by grace is different than a saint who sins.
That is what Paul talks about.
We are the saints. We are the children of God.
I was under the understanding that we got the Word from the Holy Spirit.
EPHESIANS 6:10-24 THE ‘WHOLE’ ARMOR OF GOD.
There is nothing in our Armor that even suggests we should be praying to those ‘who are awaiting the resurrection’. They are powerless until then. We are called to pray for one another while we are here on earth.
We are complete in Christ and Christ alone to fight whatever battles we have from within and without...and ‘He’ provides the Armor throughout our time here.
Any teaching that remotely suggests we pray to those who have yet to be risen is fruitless....they can’t hear you...and they have no power to help you.
BTW ...for years and years..centuries in fact... people “believed” and “thought” the world was flat too....that worked for them until ‘the truth’ was otherwise revealed....and eventually they not only “believed” it they knew they had believed in something which wasn’t factual.
Sure are and I am one of them!
<.....”Time spent praying to or focusing on anyone but Jesus or the Father, is time NOT spent praying or focusing on Jesus or the Father.......And it’s called *idolatry*.”....>
It’s also unbelief metmom....for one has to congure up more faith to believe in something outside of Jesus Himself....as this goes against His revealed word concerning the matter.
They can and do “tack” His name on it to justify to themselves this practice...just as New Agers and most false religions do...but that does not make it so. All who go outside of Christ for whatever comfort and or experience they might have in prayer... is on dangerous ground and being deceived.....
...the enemy of mens souls loves to distract God’s people away from the centrality of Christ....and a master at making the distraction/teaching “appear” perfectly acceptable.... Reminding me now He told Jesus to jump and God’s Angels would protect Him too.
I could teach that God said to go and multiply the birth and twist that to include as many wives and husbands an individual might want...that does not mean God approves...in fact we know in that case as well He does not.
What part of praying to God thru Jesus and Jesus alone do you not get?
He did!
He was the first man to realize you only need Jesus to be saved
Luther wouldn't agree with you on that point at all.
Someone is forgetting the Wedding at Cana. Didn't Jesus's mother convince Him to help out?another prot theory shot in the foot by a Catholic that reads the Bible.
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