It’s Biblical to Ask Saints to Pray for Us

Ignitum Today ^ | 15 September 2013 | Matthew Olson

[mlizzy]

Are you willing to lay down everything you know and love for Him, including your Catholic dogma?

What you're saying doesn't make sense to a Catholic. We "literally" receive Him [if we wish] daily in the Breaking of the Bread. Why would we walk away from such strength, such power, such love?

Who else but saints (the strongest people on this earth in my opinion) could make jokes while being turned on a roaster spicket, or burned at the stake with no complaint, or marched out in front of lions and gladly take their fate... tens of thousands of saints... all suffering for Jesus, giving all for Our Lord... and doing so with so much joy. It was difficult learning about Catholicism, that's true, as I was doing so with a heavy sin burden on my back, but once released from the darkness and doom....... well, I'd never go back to that.

[jodyel]

And that is my point....you have settled for something that is second rate at best even if it were true while ignoring the fact that you may come directly to the Father.

Why would you not want to do that? Perhaps because you are not born again, you are not filled with the Holy Spirit, and you still stand in judgement by God. But this is lifted the moment sincere belief occurs. You are washed as clean as new-fallen snow and no more are you condemned but have found been righteous in God’s eyes.

This is what you are seeking...not something said to a dead human who can neither see you nor hear you. Take what is being offered you and never let go!

[mlizzy]

We are made righteous by Jesus and have access to the great I AM! Why would you not want that?

I do do that. I've attended daily Mass since 1984. That's a whole lot of Jesus right there. :)

[LisaFab]

Where does the Church get the authority for the canoniztion of saints? Matthew 16:

Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

Does Jesus ask the Church to pray for Her members? Again, Matthew 18

[15] But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. [16] And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. [17] And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. [18] Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. [19] Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. [20] For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

What could there possibly be in the Catholic church or in any other earthly place that can compare?

We have Christ in the Eucharist.

Is this in Luther's Bible?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him" (John 6:53–56).

For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. (1 Cor 11:27-30)

[mitch5501]

"Take what is being offered you and never let go!"

Amen!!!

Matthew 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Mark 5:36 ...Be not afraid, only believe.

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to GIVE you the kingdom.

[Delta 21]

Thanks, but the last thing I need is a Catholic telling me how to pray. If you regarded yourself as a catholic and part of Christ’s church then I would give you credence, but a Catholic that thinks his Church is the only way?

No thanks.

*specific capitalization and the absence there of is not only accurate and intentional, but biblical as well.

[LisaFab]

Amen brother!

Sadly, I think that the majority of the misunderstanding of the Church by our separated brethren stems from their lack of reception of the Holy Eucharist. Again:

Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. [55] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

[jodyel]

Oh, matthew, please come out of that den of heresy called the Catholic Church.

YOU personally must be filled with the Holy Spirit to inherit the kingdom of God. NO priest, or parent, or church member can do anything for you or make any pronouncement about who is or is not in heaven. Can you not see that all this praying to saints is nothing but the the machinations of Satan and fallen man?

Why would you want to subjugate your right to directly approach God to anyone else? It cost God an enormous sum to
purchase us and make us His. He will never allow anyone else to usurp His presence in our lives. Certainly not some dead human being who may or may not be with Him now.

We are to grasp this privilege tightly and never let go. As believers we have been given great honor thru Jesus and no one else. Pray directly to your Father who is in heaven!

[jodyel]

Look no further than Jesus!

Look to no other!

[jodyel]

Catholics only have a very few talking points in defense of Catholicism and none ever line up with scripture.

Are you born again, narses? Are you filled with the Holy Spirit? If you are not, then you will not see the kingdom of God. If you are, then you have everything you need and all the rights and privileges of heaven have been conferred upon you. You are counted as righteous and are called saint.

Why do you not want that and to have assurance of your salvation? The Catholic dogma is a poor substitute for the Living God.

[Biggirl]

Article was excellent. Thank-you and God Bless.

[jodyel]

Wow, you could not be any more wrong.

No true believer ever converts to a dogma or a creed or a man-made religion. He is converted by Christ and filled with the Holy Spirit, who then imparts wisdom and discernment.

As I said in a previous post, do you want Jesus so badly that you would leave everything behind were He to command you so. Or do you want the comfort of your dogma instead of the living Christ?

Very few choose the path of Christ alone, but for those who do the key to heaven is given. Nothing on this earth can compare.

[jodyel]

I would be quite surprised if Mother Theresa and Pope John Paul II made it to heaven. Certainly by the standards of the world and by the Catholic church they are there.

But, unfortunately for them, those are not the standards by which we are judged. If they did not place their belief in Jesus and were not born again of the Spirit, then they are not in Heaven.

Mother Theresa herself expressed doubts about whether she was saved and going to be with God upon her death. For most of her life she was filled with doubt about her salvation. If one is saved, there will be no doubt since the Holy Spirit comes to live inside us. We have no doubt whatsoever.

http://theworldfrommywindow.blogspot.com/2007/08/sad-truth-about-mother-teresa-revealed.html

I do not believe Mother Teresa was ever born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. If she had been, she would never have doubted her salvation.

[jodyel]

Born again of the Spirit. When I say born again, I refer to spiritual rebirth and being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. As to your saints part, once we are born again of the Spirit we are saints in God's eyes. http://katachriston.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/the-born-again-narrative-in-john-3-an-aramaic-impossibility-well-no/ Bart Ehrman has published an argument concluding the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus in Jn 3 “could not have happened, at least not as it is described in the Gospel of John” (Bart Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted, p. 155). We present Ehrman’s argument here with brief critique. As a preview, our main gripe with Ehrman’s presentation (more fully explained below) is that whereas Ehrman supposes an original Aramaic conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus would necessarily have had Jesus using an Aramaic word which can only mean “from above,” but not “second time,” it turns out the ancient Aramaic versions we do actually have, such as the Syriac Peshitta, have “again” (all of the major English translations of the Peshitta render the Aramaic men derish in Jn 3:3 either as “again,” or “anew”).[1] Further, if the Aramaic for “again” which we do find in the ancient Aramaic version could have been used in an original Aramaic conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus (and there is no good reason to think it could not have been) then both the original conversation in Aramaic and the translation of it into Greek make perfectly good sense, and Ehrman’s argument has come to ruin. First, Ehrman’s argument: “In the Gospel or John chapter 3, Jesus has a famous conversation with Nicodemus in which says, “You must be born again.” The Greek word translated “again” actually has two meanings: it can mean not “a second time” but also “from above.” Whenever it is used elsewhere in John, it means “from above” (Jn 19:11, 23). That is what Jesus appears to mean in John 3 when he speaks with Nicodemus: a person must be born from above in order to have eternal life in heaven above. Nicodemus misunderstands, though, and thinks Jesus intends the other meaning of the word, that he has to be born a second time. “How can I crawl back into my mother’s womb, he asks, out of some frustration. Jesus corrects him: he is not talking about a second physical birth, but a heavenly birth, from above. This conversation with Nicodemus is predicated on the circumstance that a certain Greek word has two meanings (a double entendre). Absent the double entendre, the conversation makes little sense. The problem is this: Jesus and this Jewish leader in Jerusalem would not have been speaking Greek, but Aramaic. But the Aramaic word for “from above” does not also mean “second time.” This is a double entendre that works only in Greek. So it looks as though this conversation could not have happened—at least not as it is described in the Gospel of John” (Bart Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted, p. 155). Interesting argument, but it is complete nonsense! (note that Ehrman does not actually specify what exact Aramaic word or phrase he has in mind; we will proceed on the assumption that the Aramaic phrase found in the Syriac Peshitta will serve nicely. Here is an English translation[1] of the dialog as it occurs in the original Aramaic of the Peshitta: John 3:3 – “Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, If a man is not born AGAIN he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:4 “Nicodemus said to him, How can an old man be born again? Can he enter again a second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?” Verse 4 follows quite nicely from verse 4 in the Peshitta. Nicodemus would have understood “again” in vs. 3 to mean… well.. “again“(!), and his reply in vs. 4 would have made perfectly good sense -no “double entendre” required (nor was it ever supposed by any of the numerous early ancient translations of the Greek NT into other languages (versions), all of which simply render Jn 3:3 with equivalents of “again.” In the ancient world it seems the natural reading “again” was obvious and unanimous. No direct ancient evidence for anything else exists in Aramaic, Coptic, Ethiopic, Latin, or any other language into which the Greek text was translated). Here also is an interlinear translation from peshitta.org with Jn 3:3 in red; the footnote to their English rendering “again” has Lit. ‘from the start’ (‘over again’). Finally, let us consider the form of the text in the Greek NT. How would a translator have rendered an Aramaic conversation if it occurred as it is found in the Aramaic Peshitta into Greek? Well… he might have translated the Aramaic for “AGAIN” with the Greek word for “AGAIN” – ανωθεν/anothen- and that is precisely what we do find in the Greek text of John 3:3. http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp45.htm This term “Saint” was first used in the New Testament after the resurrection (Mt.27:52), but after the book of Acts the Church members are often identified as saints. When Annanias said Paul did many evil things to the Saints in Jerusalem Acts 9:13 (as when he put the saint’s in prison, and put many to death Acts 26:10). The word Saint shows ones new position in Christ as they are set aside for his service, the word disciple shows one is a learner. Phil. 4:21-22: “Greet every saint in Christ Jesus. The brethren who are with me greet you. All the saints greet you, Paul’s meaning is clear, those who worked with him and those he knew were saints. They are consecrated, holy and godly. 1 Cor 1:2: “To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: Paul named the believers saints in nearly every church 2 Cor 1:1: with all the saints who are in all Achaia: Rom 1:7: To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Phil 1:1: To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are in Philippi, Col 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colosse: Eph 1:1: To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus: Eph. 5:3: “But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints” A holy character is to be exhibited by those who have been translated into the kingdom of the son. A Saint in the New Testament is one who is saved by the gospel and in service to God. Jude 1:3 the faith-which was once for all delivered to the saints.” All who are in the faith are Saints. The New Testament does not support the idea of a special class of “saints.” Although some believers are more “holy” than others, because of their maturity -in their position before God all believers are the same “sanctified,” because they are “in Christ.” The Christian’s position is from justification, while we are all at different points of sanctification. We are sanctified by reading the word showing we are his disciples. We are conformed daily by reading and practicing his word.

[jodyel]

Indeed.

No more need be said to you then as you have made your eternal destiny known to all.

[xone]

ph

[matthewrobertolson]

I don’t think that you read my whole post.

The saints can hear us, by the grace of God.

Luke 15:10 says that “there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” So, obviously, the angels know what’s going on here on earth.

Luke 20:35-36 teaches us that those that are “[resurrected] from the dead” (aka those that reach Heaven) “are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.” This indicates that the angels and heavenly saints are generally equal. So, it seems that Luke 15:10 would also apply to the heavenly saints.

[jodyel]

See my post to Justmythoughts about biblical saints.

The term Rapture doesn’t appear in the bible either but it is clearly taught.

http://christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-bible.html

His Word is absolutely sufficient in itself (Psalm 119:160).

Unless you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit, Thomas, you will cling to what you know. Just as I asked the others, do you want to know Jesus even if it means leaving Catholicism?

And just a clarification to mlizzy and her sad reply to this question: Catholics all think we are trying to make them Protestant but that is not true. We want to see them born again and filled with the Holy Spirit. Neither Catholic or Protestant but Spirit-filled believers. No other appellation is needed.

[matthewrobertolson]

Thank you for saying that; it’s very kind of you. May God bless you, too! I will definitely pray for you. :)