Romans 9:21 In context:
not they that are the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they, that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed. [9] For this is the word of promise: According to this time will I come; and Sara shall have a son. [10] And not only she. But when Rebecca also had conceived at once, of Isaac our father.[11] For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God, according to election, might stand,) [12] Not of works, but of him that calleth, it was said to her: The elder shall serve the younger. [13] As it is written: Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated. [14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? God forbid. [15] For he saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will shew mercy.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [17] For the scripture saith to Pharao: To this purpose have I raised thee, that I may shew my power in thee, and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore he hath mercy on whom he will; and whom he will, he hardeneth. [19] Thou wilt say therefore to me: Why doth he then find fault? for who resisteth his will? [20] O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it: Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction, [23] That he might shew the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he hath prepared unto glory? [24] Even us, whom also he hath called, nor only of the Jews, but also of the Gentiles
Read: the sense of the passage is to explain that the people of Gentile race may be among the Elect and obtain salvation. The purpose of the passage is not to "prove" the calvinist error of God willingly making us reprobate. The analogy of the Potter is to show that God has power over the physical heritage of the flesh in the case of each individual Christian. The cases of divine "hatred" (with St. Paul, I am borrowing an Old Testament term),-- the preference of Jacob over Esau and the hardening of the heart of the Pharao are cases of divine love toward the elect, when certain actors are caused to lead the elect toward their predestined path of good works. So then God is shaping us like a potter toward glory of some (vessels of glory) and toward some utilitarian function (vessels of dishonor), but He never makes a pot in order to break it: God is not causing our sin.
1 Timothy 2
[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. [5] For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: [6] Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.
I don't know what to add to my earlier post.
It is true that at times “all men” is some kind of a shorthand for “great many” or “nearly all”. But the context of 1 Timothy 2:4 does not allow for such lax interpretation: the word “all” is repeated several times, the people Timothy might be disinclined to pray, such as the kings (none, at the time, Christian) are specially mentioned, Christ is explained to be one mediator whereas if several groups existed, those who God wills to be saved and those who He doesn’t, then an explanation would be needed who mediates for the reprobates, and why in fact the righteous need any mediation.
Let me address your comments. St. Augustine is an authority of the Church, like any father of the Church, but only when he, -- or any other father, -- remain within consensus patrum. St. Augustine's views on predestination shifted over time and in any case are not to be taken as if it were view of the entire Church. In the case on hand, his reading is plainly in contradiction with the text; it is tendentious interpretative reading. It is "lax" in the sense that it tendentiously loosens the direct and absolute meaning of "all" into some vague "not really all". I am capable of understanding the text and pointing out to you that, even though I am a simple lay Catholic without a theology degree.
Why is a mediator required to mediate their damnation?
If we understand the passage by its plain text, "God wills all to be saved" then we have no difficulty understanding that "there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus". But if the passage secretly meant "God wills some to be saved and others to be condemned" then an explanation is needed: is Christ mediating for the saved only? Is anyone but Christ mediating for the reprobates? Should Timothy in his church intercede for all or just for the elect? How is Timothy to know who the elect are?
If "all" is not "all" then the passage becomes very unclear and uncomplete, yet is commands something: to make intercession. How could St. Paul command of Timothy to make intercession and then (if "all" is no longer "all") not explain for whom?
1 Peter 2:8
[7] To you therefore that believe, he is honour: but to them that believe not, the stone which the builders rejected, the same is made the head of the corner: [8]And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of scandal, to them who stumble at the word, neither do believe, whereunto also they are set.
The ending word is ετεθησαν, occuring also in Acts 7:16, where is plainly translated as "laid" [in the sepulchre]. The fanciful "appointed" of King James translation is tendentious, and the original has no hint of anything being predestined to stumble. Christ is the cornerstone of all: some build a church on that stone, others stumble over it, but one way or another He is the foundation for all of us, for as the Creed explains "though Him all things were made". That is the beautiful meaning of Peter's metaphor, that the ilk of Calvin seek to pervert into a proof texts for themselves. This is the original Gamecock's #43:
1 Peter 2:8 “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.Notice that the quotation marks extend to the first part of the verse, and then they are replaced by a flight of fancy, conjuring up an image of Jesus the Cornerstone inserting Himself into the path of the unsuspecting reprobate causing him to fall.
God is love. God will all to be saved. God does not cause sin. In his omnipotent power God gave us free will, which God loves to respect. Calvin is a damnable deceiver of Christians. Luther was bad enough, but it is from Calvin that the common today among the Protestants school of biblical exegesis that begins and ends with denial of plain scripture originates. Anyone who reads the Holy Scripture with love and attention will run away from Calvinist falsehoods and become Catholic, and rejoice in the fullness of Christian faith.
Bloody Greek text always makes my posts funky! Here it is again, fixed. I’ll ask the Mod to erase the goofy squished one, so it won’t clutter up your ping-lists:
“the preference of Jacob over Esau and the hardening of the heart of the Pharao are cases of divine love toward the elect, when certain actors are caused to lead the elect toward their predestined path of good works.”
I think in your confusion you’ve totally embraced Reformed theology in these sentiments of yours. Albeit, a single predestination while still refusing the inevitable logic of the predestination to reprobation. (You cannot hold to one without the other.) Besides that, in fact, I can hardly disagree with them at all, but I suspect that you do not define your words as we do, since the Catholic view is not unconditional election, that is, that God chooses to give His grace to some, and these men are brought to salvation inevitably. It’s amazing how making you read something in context forces you to use such language though. Nevertheless, let’s examine your assertions. For example, what do you mean by “when certain actors are caused to lead the elect toward their predestined path of good works”? Do you mean that the vessels of wrath fulfill God’s purpose by leading the Vessels of mercy to salvation, or playing some other part in God’s plan? If you mean that, which is the Reformed position, then you do well, as we would understand it as saying that it is not by our works or faith that we receive grace, or by meeting certain conditions, but it is grace by which we meet His conditions. And God, of course, uses means, works against means, works without means, in order to accomplish His goals in our life, which are predestined and immutable. Or, as Augustine explains it,
“He promised not from the power of our will but from His own predestination. For He promised what He Himself would do, not what men would do. Because, although men do those good things which pertain to God’s worship, He Himself makes them to do what He has commanded; it is not they that cause Him to do what He has promised. Otherwise the fulfilment of God’s promises would not be in the power of God, but in that of men; and thus what was promised by God to Abraham would be given to Abraham by men themselves.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 19)
And again,
“When, therefore, He predestinated us, He foreknew His own work by which He makes us holy and immaculate. Whence the Pelagian error is rightly refuted by this testimony. “But we say,” say they, “that God did not foreknow anything as ours except that faith by which we begin to believe, and that He chose and predestinated us before the foundation of the world, in order that we might be holy and immaculate by His grace and by His work.” But let them also hear in this testimony the words where he says, “We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who works all things” (Ephesians 1:11). He, therefore, works the beginning of our belief who works all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: “For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;” (Romans 11:29) and of which it is said: “Not of works, but of Him that calls” (Romans 9:12). (Although He might have said, of Him that believes); and the election which the Lord signified when He said: “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you” (John 15:16). For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), “You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you.” Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 38)
Thus we understand, with Augustine, that we are saved not by our own willing and working, but by God who works in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure (Php 2:13). Thus no man is saved by his own determination, but by the will of God who brings us to salvation immutably, who “loved us,” and saved us, and plucked us out of the fire, when we were all children of destruction, and yet leaves others to their sins whom He chose not to save. Or as Augustine puts it,
“”So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.” Thus both the twins were born children of wrath, not on account of any works of their own, but because they were bound in the fetters of that original condemnation which came through Adam. But He who said, “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy,” loved Jacob of His undeserved grace, and hated Esau of His deserved judgment.” (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace)
We do not say that God is the author of sin. But God, when He predestinates a person to eternal life, consequently chooses not to predestinate another to eternal life. Therefore, since no one is saved but by grace, then they are doomed only to destruction, and are justly predestinated to damnation. Not because God forced them to be evil, but because they were born dead and depraved due to the sin of Adam. Therefore, God is active in salvation of the elect, who must be changed in order to believe and to obey; and God merely lets the reprobate to remain in their sin, which He justly condemns them for. That said, of course, He does not let them do as they please; in fact, he shapes them up, and gives them gifts, and abilities, and prominence and power, and keeps them active, and brings good out of their evil. In other words, these men are sinners, and God has fitted them for His purpose, and they, using these gifts and these characteristics, sin of their own volition, yet God moves them and causes them to do His will. Or as Augustine explains it,
“It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God’s, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God’s will is not fulfilled except it be God’s will. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that when the apostles had been sent away by the Jews, and had come to their own friends, and shown them what great things the priests and elders said to them, they all with one consent lifted up their voices to the Lord and said, “Lord, you are God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein; who, by the mouth of our father David, your holy servant, hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the peoples imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For in truth, there have assembled together in this city against Your holy child Jesus, whom You have anointed, Herod and Pilate, and the people of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and counsel predestinated to be done.” See what is said: “As concerning the gospel,” indeed, “they are enemies for your sakes.” Because God’s hand and counsel predestinated such things to be done by the hostile Jews as were necessary for the gospel, for our sakes.” (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Ch. 33.— It is in the Power of Evil Men to Sin; But to Do This or That by Means of that Wickedness is in God’s Power Alone.)
Thus we conclude that though God is not the author of man’s sin, yet He has created the reprobate and uses them for His own good pleasure, to “shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,”(Rom 9:22-23). Or as Augustine puts it again,
“Thus, when reprobate angels and men are left to endure everlasting punishment, the saints shall know more fully the benefits they have received by grace. Then, in contemplation of the actual facts, they shall see more clearly the meaning of the expression in the psalms, “I will sing of mercy and judgment;” for it is only of unmerited mercy that any is redeemed, and only in well-merited judgment that any is condemned.” (Augustine, Handbook of faith, hope and love, Ch. 98)
What is there to fear then in this world, when all things are so ordered for our benefit? And what can the reprobate claim in defiance, since the free-gift is offered just as much to them as to us? Yet God does not actively save them, but leaves them damned, and in continual damnation, and to us continual glory.
“I don’t know what to add to my earlier post.”
In that case, just read my post again, or, rather, Augustine’s rebuke of you.
“The ending word is... occuring also in Acts 7:16, where is plainly translated as “laid” [in the sepulchre]. The fanciful “appointed” of King James translation is tendentious, and the original has no hint of anything being predestined to stumble.”
In other words, you work around only to say the same thing, since if one is “set” to disobedience and condemnation (since God does not save them, but rather fits them to destruction), they are just as well appointed to it, or established to it, or “set” to it, whichever you prefer.