Posted on 10/07/2013 5:26:01 AM PDT by jodyel
btt
Excellent debate, but clearly Mike wins. It seems that he could have driven the point about Esau home just a bit more clearly if he would have included the passage in Rom. 9. No question, Esau was set out for destruction prior to being born. This, according to Paul, removes the “choice” of man’s destiny from man’s mind/hands and leaves in square in the heart of God...where it always belonged. And, if it is God Who decides (before the foundation of the world) those He will rescue, men are not really in a position to get themselves “out” any more than they got themselves “in”. But, a good read. Thanks.
Well, actually we all get eternal life, whether we are believers or not, sinners or saints. The difference is that believers spend theirs in heaven, while everyone else spends it in hell.
Eternal security is the topic, not eternal life.
Believers can be assured they have eternal security the moment they are born again and filled with the Spirit.
While Catholicism teaches no such assurance.
Forgot to ping all the peeps.
What do you guys do...just have everyone’s username saved somewhere and cut and paste them all in...cause all this typing stuff is wearying me. LOL
Poor Esau never stood a chance! Seems a bit unfair from a human vantage point, doesn’t it?
WOW, that is ONE diverse ping list! THIS should be very interesting, for more than one reason!
“If Judas had justifying faith, as you assert, then God must glorify him according to Romans 8:30. There are many who believe Jesus is Lord (as Judas did) but have not been born again (Mat. 7:21-23). Like other mere professors of Christ, Judas was never one of the Lord’s sheep because He never knew him (Mat. 7:21-23, John 10:14). Furthermore, Judas never demonstrated repentance. Everyone whom God has raised from death to life has been granted faith and repentance (Acts 11:18; Eph. 2:1-10).”
The problem is many THINK they are born again because they have believed in Jesus...and therein lies the rub. So very hard to make them see that. Please open hearts and minds, Lord, to your truth! Amen!
Hope it was okay...I assume anyone wanting off will tell me.
Yep, keep any lists labeled in a word document. Then you can just COPY and paste. Don’t cut and paste or it’s gone on your original. :-)
You are correct. And, that is the standard complaint Paul faced. We read on in Rom. 9
"You will say to me then, 'Why does he still find fault? For who resist His will?'
Paul's answer?
"On the contrary, who are you, o man who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this?' will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonor?"
Evidently, God is not very accomodating to man's perceived "free will" nor his arrogance. But, this is at least part of why a man/woman/child is eternally safe if they are in Jesus. Like Mike said, every one drawn by Him cannot be lost. The RC view is simply a man-made religion.
Note that Esau was foreordained to damnation but he still made his own choice to be damned, resisting the grace of God. The Lord could have saved Him, as He could have brought Sodom and Tyre and Sidonto repent by giving them the same light and grace as Chorazin and Capernaum. (Lk. 10:11-16)
Yet while God gives grace to all, He is not under obligation to give the same amount to all, but can leave them to their own desires and the consequences.
In conversion, God moves and enables man to do what he would not and could not otherwise do, opening hearts and granting repentance. (Acts 11:18; 16:14)
However, i disagree with the premise that man is damned from birth due to Adam’s sin, so that he is not simply unable to repent unless God grants it, which is true, but that the non-elect never are given grace whereby they can obey the command to repent, for that seems to essentially render them damned for Adam’s sin, which they are not culpable of.
While we suffer the effects of our forefathers choices, for good or evil, yet damnation is based upon what we are culpable for, not that which we had no choice but to do.
On the other had, even rejecting the light of conscience is in effect rejecting Christ, as obeying the former will lead to the latter. (Rm. 2) To him who has more shall be given.
But the dichotomy btwn God’s sovereignty, and mans responsibility is a endless debate, even within Rome.
“But the dichotomy btwn God’s sovereignty, and mans responsibility is a endless debate, even within Rome.”
Indeed!
I do believe I agree with you on this though.
Will be so nice to finally get home and understand it fully. We will understand fully then, right? :)
Well, I happen to be one of those who, in my more rebellious moments, questions the molder too...but I am rebellious to anything by nature, so stands to reason for my personality.
I also realize there is not darn all I can do to change it, so eventually I go with the flow, or the wheel. But usually not before I’ve had my say. For all the good it does me. lol
Mike got his butt handed to him.
Like heck! LOL
Plain as the nose on your verga face, Mike is speaking spiritually and Tim is speaking in the flesh.
Yikes! Now I really see how difficult it is to tell the natural man anything of Spirit.
Remember these days, my friend, and look back on them in horror once you come over to the light. lol
Short reply...
There scriptures that state the opposite.
What an excellent idea!
What about Cain?
He was never told that it was not ok to kill his brother!
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