Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Great Apostasy [Mormonism labels ALL Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches 'apostate']
Mormonism Research Ministry ^ | Aaron Shafovaloff

Posted on 10/09/2013 11:14:38 AM PDT by Colofornian

Around the world the fame of Christ spreads. Men and women lift their hands to praise the name of Jesus, worshiping him as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Full of the Holy Spirit, they lift him up as their savior, redeemer, and advocate. His gospel is preached, his word is believed, and his death and resurrection are celebrated in the Lord's Supper. Millions are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, trusting in the person and work of Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and the transformation of their heart. Hundreds of millions of Christians gather to fellowship over the risen Christ.

Yet Mormonism pats these Christians on the heads and pities them. The "one true church", Mormonism says, is found nowhere in non-Mormon Christendom. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is found nowhere outside Mormonism. The God of Mormonism recognizes no missionary work, no baptism, and no communion outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as authorized. Despite patronizing us with the uninteresting affirmation that all religion has some truth in it, Mormonism still teaches that God told Joseph Smith:

"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (Joseph Smith—History)

Mormonism teaches that Christ's church fell into what has been described as a complete and universal apostasy. Though LDS leaders cannot agree as to when this actually happened, they do agree that it must have happened. “Nothing less than a complete apostasy from the Christian religion would warrant the establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints” (B.H. Roberts, History of the Church 1:XL).

Evolution of the doctrine

Charles R. Harrell writes in This Is My Doctrine:

The earliest recorded LDS teachings give little indication of a universal apostasy, especially in the way it is currently understood. At first, Mormonism shared the popular evangelical sentiment that the apostasy simply consisted of a departure from gospel teachings and practices, and not the withdrawal of priesthood authority. The Book of Mormon, for example, makes no prediction of an apostasy which involves either the priesthood or the Church being taken from the earth; nor does it mention that important ordinances pertaining to exaltation (e.g., temple ordinances) would be discontinued and need to be restored. Rather, the earliest Mormon teachings of an apostasy, like those from other contemporary restorationists, spoke only of moral corruption, a clouding or perversion of the basic teachings of Christ causing “an exceedingly great many . . . to stumble” (1 Ne. 13:29), and a denial of the power of the Holy Ghost—which includes the working of miracles (2 Ne. 28:4–15; Morm. 8:26–31).

The Book of Mormon refers to the “formation” after the time of the apostles of a “great and abominable church” (1 Ne. 13:6–9, 26–28), which early Saints understood as referring primarily to the Catholic Church. But since the Book of Mormon further defined it non-denominationally as any group opposed to “the church of the Lamb of God” (1 Ne. 14:10), Saints also came to see it as referring to any religion or government opposing God’s work. Notably, the Book of Mormon doesn’t ever suggest that the church of the Lamb would be taken from the earth, only that in the latter days, “its numbers . . . [would be] few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters” (1 Ne 14:12).

Prior to 1834, there is no mention of priesthood being taken from the earth—or restored for that matter (see Chapter 4). Instead, the Lord tells the Saints in December 1832, “The priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers . . . therefore your life and the priesthood have remained” (D&C 86:8–10; emphasis mine). It isn’t until several years after the restoration of the Church that apostasy narratives began to include a loss of authority along with essential saving ordinances, thus paving the way for the current LDS understanding of the Great Apostasy.

Throughout the nineteenth century and well into the twentieth century, the apostasy continued to be defined primarily as a period of gospel perversion, spiritual darkness and loss of priesthood authority. Catholicism continued to be seen by many as being the principal culprit in corrupting the church.

Current LDS historians note a cultural bias underlying early Mormon characterizations of Christianity as a corrupt morass of false teachings; moreover, there is still considerable inertia which keeps these legacy teachings alive. In his historical survey of LDS literature on the apostasy, BYU history professor Eric Dursteler observes that early LDS treatises on the apostasy were “clearly” influenced by “the highly polemical, popular, confessional, historical literature of the nineteenth century and the anticlerical literature of the eighteenth-century enlightenment.” He further notes that, although the characterization of the Middle Ages as a dark and decadent era and the Renaissance as an era of spiritual awakening has been repudiated by virtually all modern historians of the past century, “Latter-day Saint treatments of the apostasy . . . have retained much of their binary vision of the Middle Ages and Renaissance.”

With modern scholarship having an increasing influence on Mormon perceptions of history, Dursteler observes that there seems to be a growing tendency among LDS writers to “move away” from depicting the apostasy as bringing on a long period of darkness followed by the dawning of the Reformation. “Instead,” he notes, “the apostasy is depicted simply as an age in which priesthood authority did not exist.” Thus, the concept of the apostasy has shifted from a loss of spiritual gifts and truths to primarily a loss of priesthood authority.

LDS characterizations of other religions as the “church of the devil” have significantly diminished. In 1990, for example, the mock representation of Protestant ministers as hirelings of Satan was removed from the LDS temple ceremony.

BYU professor Spencer Fluhman observes:

"I don't think the early Latter-day Saints discerned a doctrinal restoration in the ways that you and I do until Nauvoo. Until Joseph Smith's teaching gravitated to those topics like the nature of God. And he began saying things in distinctive enough ways that the Latter-day Saints began to discern a real addition to their understanding of God and humanity and eternity and so on. Many of the revelations in the 1830s put forward new ideas, but the Saints didn't discern a doctrinal restoration really until the late 30s and into the Nauvoo period... In some ways the cosmos was rearranged for them in Nauvoo." (BYU professor Spencer Fluhman, Mormon Identity)

True to the Faith, a currently used "correlated" booklet, summarizes the Great Apostasy this way:

"After the deaths of the Savior and His Apostles, men corrupted the principles of the gospel and made unauthorized changes in Church organization and priesthood ordinances. Because of this widespread wickedness, the Lord withdrew the authority of the priesthood from the earth. During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances. This apostasy lasted until Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son appeared to Joseph Smith in 1820 and initiated the restoration of the fulness of the gospel. We now live in a time when the gospel of Jesus Christ has been restored. But unlike the Church in times past, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will not be overcome by general apostasy. The scriptures teach that the Church will never again be destroyed (see D&C 138:44; see also Daniel 2:44)"

Today, Mormonism associates the Great Apostasy with a:

Mormons see the Restoration of the LDS Church as a reversal of the above.

Soft vs. harsh definitions

Depending on the context and person either a soft or harsh definition is used for "Great Apostasy." Soft Mormon definitions of "apostasy" are minimized to the loss of priesthood authority. More harsh Mormon definitions of "apostasy" encompass the loss of any true, faithful Christians. At the very least, in this view the professing Christians grovel in spiritual darkness, being under the power of Satan himself. The common New Testament prooftexts used by Mormons for the Great Apostasy usually operate with a more harsh Mormon definition, but when scrutinized, Mormons will often revert to a minimal or soft definition. Mormons are in a tough spot today, wanting simultaneously to affirm their traditional and scriptural teachings on the Great Apostasy (replete with harsh, sweeping moral indictments), yet generalizing these "apostate" Christians as having good intentions and the light of Christ.

Examples of the "harsh" approach

Example of the "soft" approach

The gospel itself, lost from the earth?

Mormon Prooftexts

Old Testament

New Testament

As a rule of thumb, texts Mormons use to support the Great Apostasy from the New Testament usually either:

Harell writes:

"On careful examination, none of the New Testament passages referring to heresies within the church or persecution from without seems to predict a wholesale departure from the faith; all seem to assume that there would be faithful saints who remain on the earth until Christ comes. Miami University New Testament professor Roy Ward observed that every prediction of an apostasy in the New Testament and other apocalyptic literature 'always assumes that the righteous will have a continuing existence until the end, despite the apostasia.'" (ch. 2)

Passages that refute the Great Apostasy

Did a Universal Apostasy and Restoration Really...

Jesus as the groom, friend, shepherd, and true vine

Hypocritical standards

Prioritizing intellectuals over apostles and prophets as cause for apostasy

BYU professor Kent P. Jackson writes:

"Though pagans and persecutors often caused difficulties for early Christians, from the historical record there is no reason to believe that persecution had anything to do with the Apostasy, and the evidence does not point to Church members abandoning the faith to revert to their ancestral paganism. Nor do the sources suggest that the Apostasy was the result of Christians becoming less active in their faith or losing interest in it. Instead, we see zealous Church members who were not content with 'sound doctrine' but still had 'itching ears' for religion (2 Tim. 4:3-4). And they did what their counterparts do in our own day. They sought out what a modern apostle has called 'alternate voices,' 5 teachers whose words they found to be more 'pleasing unto the carnal mind' (Alma 30:53)—more intellectually stimulating, more in style with contemporary ideas, or more spiritually titillating—than were the teachings of the Lord's authorized servants. In due time this process resulted in a spiritual transformation in the Church. The divinely revealed authority of apostles was replaced by the self-appointed authority of intellectuals." (From Apostasy to Restoration, ch. 3)

Yet this is precisely what is happening in modern Mormonism. Informed Mormons are prioritizing the voices of Robert Millet, Stephen Robinson, Michael Ash, Blake Ostler, Daniel Peterson, etc., over apostles and prophets like Spencer Kimball, Dallin Oaks, Richard G. Scott, Boyd K. Packer, etc. Jackson might as well be talking about Sunstone, FAIR, FARMS, or the BYU religion department.

Disregarding truth to promote the interests of the church as evidence of apostasy

Mormon apostle James Talmage writes:

"Disregard for truth. As early as the fourth century, certain pernicious doctrines embodying a disregard for truth gained currency in the Church. Thus, it was taught "that it was an act of virtue to deceive and lie, when by that means the interests of the church might be promoted." Needless to say, sins other than those of falsehood and deceit were justified when committed in the supposed interests of church advancement, and crime was condoned under the specious excuse that the end justifies the means. Many of the fables and fictitious stories relating to the lives of Christ and the apostles, as also the spurious accounts of supernatural visitations and wonderful miracles, in which the literature of the early centuries abound, are traceable to this infamous doctrine that lies are acceptable unto God if perpetrated in a cause that man calls good." - The Great Apostasy, ch. 7

Other Quotes

See Also



TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apostasy; christian; cult; flds; lds; mormonism; nonchristian; principle; whackadoodle
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-130 next last
From the article:
Around the world the fame of Christ spreads. Men and women lift their hands to praise the name of Jesus, worshiping him as the King of kings and Lord of lords. Full of the Holy Spirit, they lift him up as their savior, redeemer, and advocate. His gospel is preached, his word is believed, and his death and resurrection are celebrated in the Lord's Supper. Millions are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, trusting in the person and work of Christ for forgiveness of sins, eternal life, and the transformation of their heart. Hundreds of millions of Christians gather to fellowship over the risen Christ.

Yet Mormonism pats these Christians on the heads and pities them. The "one true church", Mormonism says, is found nowhere in non-Mormon Christendom. The gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit is found nowhere outside Mormonism. The God of Mormonism recognizes no missionary work, no baptism, and no communion outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as authorized. Despite patronizing us with the uninteresting affirmation that all religion has some truth in it, Mormonism still teaches that God told Joseph Smith:


"I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'" (Joseph Smith—History)
Mormonism teaches that Christ's church fell into what has been described as a complete and universal apostasy.
1 posted on 10/09/2013 11:14:38 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: All
So here we have a Mormon church that claims...:
a. gift of indwelling HS to be found NOWHERE outside of Mormonism;
b. It ALONE is the "one living & true church on the face of the earth" (D&C 1:30)
c. No missionary work outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely authorized
d. No baptism outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely authorized
e. No communion outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely authorized
f. No spiritual gifts outside of Mormonism is recognized as divinely given
g. Although the apostle Paul wrote about prophetic gifts to the Corinthians (which is distinct from any official "OFFICE" of prophet as we find in the Old Testament), Mormonism claims no one but their top etchelon speaks prophetically any more as guided by the Holy Spirit. [Ironically, many Mormon apologists and writers have attempted to belittle Christianity for saying God doesn't reveal revelations any more; yet, these very advocates of Mormonism have "bottled up" God from speaking to anyone beyond a few who happen to live in Salt Lake City!]
2 posted on 10/09/2013 11:15:00 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
[See also the bullet-point list in the article with the lead in of: "Today, Mormonism associates the Great Apostasy with a..."]
3 posted on 10/09/2013 11:15:41 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; All

It’s always incredible to me how arrogant the LDS is on these matters, and yet they wear magic underwear and believe in the stupidest of things, such as the Book of Abraham known-forgery and planet Kolob with its polygamous god. You only need 5 minutes on the internet to prove ol’ Joey Smith a fraud.


4 posted on 10/09/2013 11:18:11 AM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All

From the article: Charles R. Harrell writes in This Is My Doctrine: LDS characterizations of other religions as the “church of the devil” have significantly diminished. In 1990, for example, the mock representation of Protestant ministers as hirelings of Satan was removed from the LDS temple ceremony.

I find it rather hard to believe that the true God would authorize such a temple ceremony as what was practiced by Mormons thru 1990...and also their previous temple ceremony practiced thru either 1926 or early 1927 -- where during the Mormon Temple Endowment, Mormons would swear the "Law of Vengeance Oath":
[This reconstruction of the endowment, which drew on various accounts of the ceremony, was published in 1931. The text appears to describe the pre-1927 endowment and thus was already outdated by the time it was published. The temple referred to in this text is the Salt Lake Temple].

LAW OF VENGEANCE: "You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray, and never cease to pray, and never cease to importune high heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation, and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children unto the third and fourth generation." "All bow your heads and say yes."


Source: LDS Endowment: 1931 Account
5 posted on 10/09/2013 11:18:12 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: All
From the article: ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda - "the church is always reformed and always reforming."

Has the historic Christian church always been in need of ongoing reformation? Of course! Yet this article discloses what is wrong with the Mormon prooftexting of certain Bible verses to claim there would be a complete apostasy.

Mormonism makes a mockery of the apostle Paul as an apostle, had a complete apostasy already occurred. For Paul prophesied -- in Ephesians 3:21:
21 Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen.

Question: What part of "in the church"..."throughout all ages"... & "world without end" didn't Joseph Smith & current Mormons not understand?

6 posted on 10/09/2013 11:20:46 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Have they convinced the Roman Catholics? My understanding is that the Roman Catholics hold that the Mormons are heretics.


7 posted on 10/09/2013 11:23:09 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

It’s almost a requirement for cults to take that attitude though. They need to convince people that they are the only option, otherwise nobody would comply with their crazy demands.


8 posted on 10/09/2013 11:25:39 AM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

CULT OF MORMONIC VERSES PLACEMARKER

(Hey West, I want to be on your list too!)


9 posted on 10/09/2013 11:27:17 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion (I grew up in America. I now live in the United States..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker
Have they convinced the Roman Catholics? My understanding is that the Roman Catholics hold that the Mormons are heretics.

Good question. Not among the Catholic hierarchy. Unfortunately, at the grassroots level, my experience has been that:
Some FREEPER Catholics have defended Mormonism on FR...despite the reality that Mormonism teaches that the RC church is a completely apostate church with no authority to do anything.

10 posted on 10/09/2013 11:27:47 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Does the Catholic church accept the validity of the Mormons?


11 posted on 10/09/2013 11:30:36 AM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker
Does the Catholic church accept the validity of the Mormons?

No.

12 posted on 10/09/2013 11:31:59 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

don’t the mormons also believe that Lucifer is a son of God, and that Xenu took Jesus to visit the navaho before beginning his ministry in Judea?


13 posted on 10/09/2013 11:32:44 AM PDT by stonewall_jackson215
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Yes, the One True God forbade the swearing of ANY oaths, much less a vengeance oath.

It’s interesting that the oath was just removed from the service. An oath is binding... just telling people to stop saying it doesn’t relieve anyone from the obligations of oaths they already made. Did the Mormon church ever actually release anyone from the oaths they bound them with?


14 posted on 10/09/2013 11:33:12 AM PDT by Boogieman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Some FREEPER Catholics have defended Mormonism on FR...despite the reality that Mormonism teaches that the RC church is a completely apostate church with no authority to do anything.

I'm not defending Mormonism, however I not offended that Mormons find me, a Roman Catholic, apostate. I find them apostate too. And Lutherans, and Calvinists, and Baptists, and Eastern Orthodox. So what?

Obviously, Mormons are further from my Catholic faith than others since Mormons don't believe in a Triune God. But it's hardly surprising or troubling to me that Mormons would find me apostate. In fact, their faith is so far from my own that I would hope they would.

15 posted on 10/09/2013 11:33:38 AM PDT by old and tired
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker; All
Btw, beyond some FR responses I've seen from Catholics re: Mormonism...

It's really quite interesting that...

...the Mormon church has spent $million of slamming & defaming the worldwide Christian church for generations! Yet when a few online individuals stand up to this extreme disregard & bad-mouthing & intolerance, they become the targets. The very people who claim to not being able to stand intolerance fail to...
...register concerns with the Mormon church over how it brands worldwide Christianity;
...and then fail to see their own intolerance toward those bold enough to critique the Mormon powers who belittle all other churches other than their own.

We've seen an "interesting" mix of FR posters thru the years:

* It's almost like some FReepers have grown up in homes where seemingly any kind of conflict amongst parents was interpreted as "hostility" [maybe their parents WERE hostile to each other before divorcing; yet no need to project that to the point of impugning others' motives, for which they have no special insight]. Therefore, they seem to "read" ALL critiques as problematic.

* Other FReepers have seemed to have been overly propagandized in our "co-exist" culture, where their educations have hand-fed a daily vision of "can't we all get along?". They seemingly live out the left's version of "tolerance" to the point that they can't even see their own intolerance of those who properly critique counterfeit cults.

16 posted on 10/09/2013 11:34:51 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: old and tired
...it's hardly surprising or troubling to me that Mormons would find me apostate. In fact, their faith is so far from my own that I would hope they would.

Excellent fresh observation offered on here...thanks for injecting it!

17 posted on 10/09/2013 11:36:00 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Let’s just make it simple: mormonism was created and formed by a man who was anti-Christian\Catholic\Orthodox, who was also a con, adulterous pedophile.


18 posted on 10/09/2013 11:37:48 AM PDT by svcw (obama lied my plan died)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
"Yet Mormonism pats these Christians on the heads and pities them. The "one true church", Mormonism says, is found nowhere in non-Mormon Christendom."

Your point?

19 posted on 10/09/2013 11:39:37 AM PDT by YHAOS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Yet another Christian-bashing thread.

Aren't you liberals supposed to be spitting on soldiers today?

20 posted on 10/09/2013 11:41:40 AM PDT by laotzu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Mormons beware… Revelation 22: 18-19.

“I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone ADDS anything to them, God will add to that person the PLAGUES described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any SHARE in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll”.


21 posted on 10/09/2013 11:42:18 AM PDT by FiddlePig
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Addendum.

I take it that your post #16 is at least part of your point?

22 posted on 10/09/2013 11:45:00 AM PDT by YHAOS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

BTTT and read for later —much food for thought.....


23 posted on 10/09/2013 11:45:44 AM PDT by duckbutt (Those who pay no taxes have no check on their appetite for services.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

of course the mormons are heretics, just like the baptists


24 posted on 10/09/2013 11:47:53 AM PDT by stonewall_jackson215
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; CottShop; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; ...

BEEP!


25 posted on 10/09/2013 11:48:59 AM PDT by YHAOS
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker
I am not sure they accept the validity of the Orthodox and Protestant churches. The Pope makes nice with all types of other religious leaders. But that doesn't mean anyone, even other Christians working from virtually the same coda, who is not Roman Catholic isn't at some level considered a heretic and destined for Hell.

Most of my friends throughout my life have been Roman Catholic so I would welcome being told I am wrong about this.

26 posted on 10/09/2013 11:49:15 AM PDT by katana (Just my opinions)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: katana; donmeaker; All
I am not sure they [Catholicism] accept the validity of the Orthodox and Protestant churches. The Pope makes nice with all types of other religious leaders.

An article I saw about 5 yrs ago stressed that the previous Pope said their issue with Protestantism boiled down primarily to two aspects: Authority to baptize and authority re: the eucharist/Lord'Supper.

That doesn't mean Catholicism hasn't had other doctrinal points of contention with Protestantism (hey, parts of Protestantism has doctrinal points of contention within other parts of Protestantism!)...

But you focused on the word "validity" -- but per that article...the only part that recent Catholicism has openly questioned Protestantism's "validity" is on the grounds of the Sacraments & the authority to practice them.

27 posted on 10/09/2013 11:57:41 AM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

These folks can call me whatever they want. But at the end of the day I know I am saved by the Grace of Our Lord Christ Jesus.

They know no such comfort and peace and I pray that they will discover it someday.


28 posted on 10/09/2013 12:06:04 PM PDT by MeganC (A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll never need one again. 969)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: laotzu; Colofornian

Huh?

Who’s bashing Christians?


29 posted on 10/09/2013 12:09:16 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously-you won't live through it anyway-Enjoy Yourself ala Louis Prima)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: MeganC; All
These folks can call me whatever they want. But at the end of the day I know I am saved by the Grace of Our Lord Christ Jesus. They know no such comfort and peace and I pray that they will discover it someday.

Indeed.

Keep in mind. Joseph Smith -- once he was committed to this notion of a "restoration" (vs. a reformation) -- "had" to destroy worldwide Christianity.

If he hadn't, there wouldn't have been need for his alleged "restoration"...

Therefore, he took a "scorched earth" approach...
...attempted to build the biggest spiritual graveyard in the world...
...and attempted to bury it.

But the Church of the Resurrection refuses to play dead.

30 posted on 10/09/2013 12:11:56 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: katana

Catholics recognize that the Orthodox have apostolic succession. Except for some Anglicans and maybe some Lutherans, not sure any other Christian group has the same understanding as Orthodox/Catholics with apostolic succession.

As far as being destined for hell, Pope Benedict confirmed this:

“It follows that these separated churches and Communities, though we believe they suffer from defects, are deprived neither of significance nor importance in the mystery of salvation. In fact the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as instruments of salvation, whose value derives from that fullness of grace and of truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church”

So if your Catholic friends disagree tell them to take it up with the Pope.

Freegards


31 posted on 10/09/2013 12:12:57 PM PDT by Ransomed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

Wow, Mormons and Catholics have a ton in common!


32 posted on 10/09/2013 12:18:43 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Why do all these fake religions do all this stupid stuff?

Praying to dead saints, keeping dead saints bodies in glass coffins for all to walk by and gawk at, fall down at the least little ghostly demonic apparition that resembles Mary, and on and on.

Same with Mormonism. Just plain ignorance and stupidity.


33 posted on 10/09/2013 12:21:05 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: FiddlePig; All
Mormons beware… Revelation 22: 18-19. “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone ADDS anything to them, God will add to that person the PLAGUES described in this scroll. And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any SHARE in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll”.

Good point.

Btw, LOTS of Mormon apologists & their leaders have attempted to "duck" the warning of Revelation 22:18-19 by claiming that the warning was written to apply only to the book of Revelation -- and not either the entire New Testament or Bible.

Even if that is conceded, what then is STILL the problem resting upon Joseph Smith's spiritual head?

Well, Mormons have endorsed Joseph Smith's rewriting of the Bible. It's called the JST -- or Inspired Version. Smith knew hardly any Greek, but proceeded to revise -- and add on to -- the Bible.

And guess what? Smith added over 500 words to the book of Revelation!

Now, the Salt Lake City-based church still used the KJV -- and not all of the JST. But do you want to know why?

Well the Mormon gods who told Smith to rewrite the KJV forgot to ensure that the copyright for it would stay in the Nauvoo-->Salt Lake City clan of Mormons. Emma Smith, Joseph's widow, wound up keeping the manuscript and the break-off RLDS (now renamed) published the JST.

Several Mormon publications & Mormon leaders have tried claiming that Joseph Smith disobeyed the Mormon gods' directive to publish the JST by saying it was an unfinished work. But others have conceded he did finish it; and even if it was conceded that he didn't finish it, why would that even matter?

After all,
(1) the Mormon "scripture" "Doctrine & Covenants" is by their own admission an "unfinished" book -- given that they literally brag about their gods giving their "prophets" add-on "revelations" which will eventually be added to the book!
(2) Also, if the JST was determined by a past, present or future Mormon "prophet" -- then why haven't ANY of them used the all-powerful "SEER" skills to finish it? What? The Mormon gods directed Smith to finish it, and yet it's not on any Mormon "prophet's" "to-do" list to finish it?

Horse-hockey!

34 posted on 10/09/2013 12:21:29 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker

Have you ever tried convincing a Catholic of anything?

Good luck to you if you do.

I see they have quite a lot in common with Mormons though.


35 posted on 10/09/2013 12:22:09 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Boogieman

Cults:

1. Roman Catholicism...check
2. Mormonism...check
3. Jehovah’s Witnesses...check
4. Oneness Pentecostals...check


36 posted on 10/09/2013 12:24:15 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: jodyel
Wow, Mormons and Catholics have a ton in common!

The more recent Popes -- like the previous Pope -- have tended to soften their previous stances toward Protestantism.

Their BIGGEST bone of contention now with Protestant churches is the authority to administer the Sacraments (baptism/communion).

They've pulled back "apostate" accusations...some Catholic leaders have gone so far to commend Martin Luther in various ways.

37 posted on 10/09/2013 12:24:35 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

The Great Apostasy [Mormonism labels ALL Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches ‘apostate’]


WoW.... what a bazaar statement....

ON the Other hand.... SOME OF THEM ARE...


38 posted on 10/09/2013 12:24:52 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

“Some FREEPER Catholics have defended Mormonism on FR”

That doesn’t surprise me a bit since they’ve no idea what true Christianity is either.


39 posted on 10/09/2013 12:25:24 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

“Some FREEPER Catholics have defended Mormonism on FR...despite the reality that Mormonism teaches that the RC church is a completely apostate church with no authority to do anything.”

The LDS might teach that, but every time I have seen the whore of Babylon/goddess worshipping idolaters/he who is not to be named on the religion forum drek/Catholic Church is a nonChristian cult garbage about the Catholic Church on FR, it has come from other sorts of Christians, not LDS. Like this thread. So maybe that factors into the dynamic on FR.

Freegards


40 posted on 10/09/2013 12:26:26 PM PDT by Ransomed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: stonewall_jackson215

LOL...you mean just like the Catholics.

Seems Mormons and Catholics have tons of stuff in common and none of it true Christianity.


41 posted on 10/09/2013 12:27:48 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: katana

Oh, they’ll tell you if they think you are wrong, katana. And everyone who is against them is wrong.


42 posted on 10/09/2013 12:28:48 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Vendome

Can’t be bashing Christians cause Mormons are not Christian.


43 posted on 10/09/2013 12:29:38 PM PDT by jodyel
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: donmeaker; Colofornian; katana
Have they convinced the Roman Catholics? My understanding is that the Roman Catholics hold that the Mormons are heretics.

This is a gross oversimplification, but the Orthodox are pretty much regarded as schismatic but not necessarily heretical members of the Church, Protestants as validly baptized but heretical members of the Church, and Mormons as not even members of the Church.

As far as Catholic sacramental theology is concerned, since Mormon baptism is invalid, its recipients are not really in any better position than pagans, notwithstanding its Christian roots.

If Catholics defend Mormonism it's probably just an accident of both being minorities in a mostly Protestant country. But in the big picture we have much less in common with them than with Protestants. Father de Smet compared them to Muslims, and not favorably:

http://www.3rd1000.com/history3/events/mormons.htm

44 posted on 10/09/2013 12:29:53 PM PDT by Claud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian
Their BIGGEST bone of contention now with Protestant churches is the authority to administer the Sacraments (baptism/communion).

Not really. A Baptism with water in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is valid. Catholics may only validly receive the sacrament of Holy Communion in Churches where there is a belief in transubstantiation. The only non-Catholic Churches that I'm aware of that hold this belief are the Eastern Orthodox Churches, and probably the Coptics. However, we must be invited to receive there as it is my understanding that some Orthodox Churches object to Catholics receiving.

45 posted on 10/09/2013 12:34:16 PM PDT by old and tired
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: laotzu; All

“Yet another Christian-bashing thread.
Aren’t you liberals supposed to be spitting on soldiers today?”


lol, you will quickly find that, aside from maybe your Mormon buddies or a few of the apostates on this forum, no Christian conservative considers the LDS with its polygamous gods to be “Christian,” but the very essence of the absurdities that the devil drives men into.


46 posted on 10/09/2013 12:36:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: Ransomed

“The LDS might teach that, but every time I have seen the whore of Babylon/goddess worshipping idolaters/he who is not to be named on the religion forum drek/Catholic Church is a nonChristian cult garbage about the Catholic Church on FR, it has come from other sorts of Christians, not LDS.”


Usually this starts because Catholics pick fights on FR and then lose them, and then they troll perfectly good threads where we can face down what is clearly damning error, and they insert stuff like “you guys are just like Mormons anyway.” Don’t be surprised if Catholics who do this get responses in kind for their arrogance.


47 posted on 10/09/2013 12:42:22 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (If anyone tells you it's a cookbook, don't believe them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: hosepipe; Ransomed; donmeaker; jodyel; katana; stonewall_jackson215; All
The Great Apostasy [Mormonism labels ALL Protestant, Catholic & Orthodox churches ‘apostate’] WoW.... what a bazaar statement....ON the Other hand.... SOME OF THEM ARE... [Hosepipe]

LOL...you mean just like the Catholics. Seems Mormons and Catholics have tons of stuff in common and none of it true Christianity. [jodyel, post #41]

If you go back to my post #6, there's at least one point there that not only Mormons need to listen to, but fellow Protestants as well:

Martin Luther NEVER saw himself as beginning a "new church" from scratch. The REFORMERS saw themselves as REFORMERS only!

Hence note the quote in the article of this thread: ecclesia semper reformans, semper reformanda - "the church is always reformed and always reforming."

I then said in post #6: Has the historic Christian church always been in need of ongoing reformation? Of course!

I added other comments there...one being that: "Mormonism makes a mockery of the apostle Paul as an apostle, had a complete apostasy already occurred."

And PROTESTANTS too, dare not make this same mistake!

As I cite this verse below -- I am applying it to the pre-Martin Luther reformation years of the Catholic Church:

The apostle Paul prophesied -- in Ephesians 3:21:

21 Unto him be glory IN THE CHURCH by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen. [KJV]

20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, 21 to him be glory IN THE CHURCH church and in Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL GENERATIONS, FOR EVER AND EVER! Amen.

[Ephesians 3, NIV]

Question now for you fellow Protestants who want to condemn the pre-Luther reformation years of the Catholic church to total apostasy: What part of "in the church"..."throughout all ages/generations"... & "for ever & ever/world without end" don't you understand?

Yes, the 16th century (& before) Catholic church was badly in need of reformation; but be careful --lest you wind up calling the apostle Paul a "false prophet" for his declaration in Ephesians 3:21!

Per the prophetic declaration of Eph. 3:21, God in fact DID receive glory -- even if limited in many ways -- from those within the Catholic church prior to the Reformation.

48 posted on 10/09/2013 12:44:04 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I know. The Catholics are really asking for it. Just look at all the Catholic provocations to non-Catholic Christians on this thread, it’s a wonder we haven’t seen even more righteous and justified proclamations from non-Catholic Christians about the Catholic Church being a nonChristian cult than we have already.

Freegards


49 posted on 10/09/2013 12:51:42 PM PDT by Ransomed
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: Colofornian

I figure that Paul was talking about the catholic church, and the current organization is the Catholic church. One is the universal community of believers, and the second is the commercial brand of one small part of that community.


50 posted on 10/09/2013 12:53:19 PM PDT by donmeaker (The lessons of Weimar are soon to be relearned.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-130 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson