Posted on 10/17/2013 8:32:30 PM PDT by matthewrobertolson
Calvinists occasionally claim that their beliefs -- commonly expressed with the acronym "T.U.L.I.P" -- are totally in line with historical Christianity, but below are some quotes from the Church Fathers that disprove the claim. This list is certainly not comprehensive, but I think it best summarizes the Church's points.
Total Depravity - "..as a consequence of the Fall of man, every person born into the world is morally corrupt, enslaved to sin and is, apart from the grace of God, utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to turn to Christ in faith for salvation."
(NOTE: Catholics believe in this, to an extent -- after all, our faith and our works only have meaning because of God's grace -- but the concept of Total Depravity is often taken to an extreme.)
"If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice." - St. Ignatius of Antioch [1]Unconditional Election - "God chose some individuals from the mass of fallen humanity unto salvation without regard to any merit or foreseen faith in them, but solely based on His sovereign intentions.""'But unto them that are contentious,' he [St. Paul] says [in Romans 2:8]. Again, he deprives of excuse those that live in wickedness, and shows that it is from a kind of disputatiousness and carelessness that they fall into unrighteousness. 'And do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness.' See, here is another accusation again. For what defense can he set up, who flees from the light and chooses the dark? And he does not say, who are 'compelled by,' 'lorded over by,' but who 'obey unrighteousness,' that one may learn that the fall is one of free choice, the crime not of necessity." - St. John Chrysostom [2]
"There is not a class of souls sinning by nature and a class of souls [practicing] righteousness by nature; but both act from choice, the substance of their souls being of one kind only and alike in all." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem [3]Limited Atonement - "..God's design and intent in sending Christ to die on the cross was to pay for the sins and secure the redemption of those whom God has predetermined to save, namely the elect. Therefore, the primary benefits of his death were designed for and accrue only to believers.""For God made man free, and with power over himself. That, then, which man brought upon himself through carelessness and disobedience, this God now vouchsafes to him as a gift through His own philanthropy and pity, when men obey Him. For as man, disobeying, drew death upon himself; so, obeying the will of God, he who desires is able to procure for himself life everlasting." - St. Theophilus of Antioch [4]
"Now if all have sinned, how come some to be saved, and some to perish? It is because all were not minded to come to Him, since for His part all were saved, for all were called. ... Whence then are some vessels of wrath, and some of mercy? Of their own free choice. God, however, being very good, shows the same kindness to both. For it was not those in a state of salvation only to whom He showed mercy, but also Pharaoh, as far as His part went. For of the same long-suffering, both they and he had the advantage. And if he was not saved, it was quite owing to his own will: since, as for what concerns God, he had as much done for him as they who were saved." - St. John Chrysostom [5]Irresistible Grace - "..the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save, whereby in God's timing, he overcomes their resistance to the call of the gospel and irresistibly brings them to a saving faith in Christ."
"This expression [of our Lord], 'How often would I have gathered your children together, and you would not,' [Matthew 23:37] set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually." - St. Irenaeus [6]Perseverance of the saints - "..those who are truly saved [those who truly believe] will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation."
"And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have repented not before death, shall by no means be saved." - St. Justin Martyr [7]"Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord will come. But come together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you are not made perfect in the last time." - The Didache [8]
John Calvin
References:
1. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians [link 1] [link 2]
4. Theophilus to Autolycus (Book 2, Chapter 27) [link 1] [link 2] [link 3]
6. Against Heresies (Book 4, Chapter 37)
7. Dialogue with Trypho (Chapter 47)
Should we trust Father Jacob and go into "Tamar" just as he did?
Should we trust Father Moses and do as he did "and hid the Egyptian in the sand"?
Should we do as Father Abraham did "saying Sarah was his sister"?
Ah, NO! But we trust the God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses. Why, because GOD ALONE CAN BE TRUSTED. And the Words of Christ, because He is God can be trusted.
Well did Christ say "And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven".
Indeed that is what is being done in "TULIP and the church FATHERS? It is to put someone as Father above God the Father whom Christ said to call no man Pope (Father)?
All Scripture therefore is tested upon Christ Alone so that it cannot be bent upon the Traditions of men.
If you were a disciple of Christ, you would at least acknowledge His authority. But instead go right on with "Traditions" even though I have shown you can't put your Trust in them with four examples which were not acknowledged.
I hope the viewers of this post can see this and instead put their trust in Christ Alone.
“Scripture shares the fullness of truth at least implicitly in all cases, but not always explicitly. For this reason, you must have an authority to help interpret difficult-to-understand passages in an overall context. Of course, this context must be at least hinted at throughout Christian history, so a lot of forms of Protestantism are automatically invalidated on that point alone. “
I can’t help but to notice the following characteristics with your reply:
1) It’s just an assertion.
2) You didn’t answer any of the objections in my post.
3) It is predicated on a denial of the Holy Ghost as guide, comforter, preserver, advocate, and teacher and revealer of the word of God.
4) It ignores the elephant in the room, which is the existence of more than one “Apostolic tradition.”
To expand on the 4th number on the list, you basically want me to trade in my freedom to think for myself, in exchange for a Pope who is supposed to do my thinking for me, who teaches things like this:
Atheist Reporter: Your Holiness, is there is a single vision of the Good? And who decides what it is?
Pope Francis: “Each of us has a vision of good and of evil. We have to encourage people to move towards what they think is Good.”
Atheist Reporter: Your Holiness, you wrote that in your letter to me. The conscience is autonomous, you said, and everyone must obey his conscience. I think that’s one of the most courageous steps taken by a Pope.
Pope Francis: “And I repeat it here. Everyone has his own idea of good and evil and must choose to follow the good and fight evil as he conceives them. That would be enough to make the world a better place.”
John Paul II, Address, May 22, 2002: “Praise to you, followers of Islam… Praise to you, Jewish people… Praise especially to you, Orthodox Church…”
John Paul II, Redemptoris Missio (# 55), Dec. 7, 1990:
“God… does not fail to make himself present in many ways, not only to individuals but also to entire peoples through their spiritual riches, of which their religions are the main and essential expression…”
Can you tell me what is so persuasive in giving up the authority of the Bible, the plain sentence, the meaning of a word, 1 + 1 = 2, in exchange for a bunch of goons who used to burn people at the stake but today can’t get their lips on the butt of an infidel fast enough?
“Where did you hear this? It is false, if you are referring to the practice of requesting her prayers.”
Nope, not false at all:
“The foundation of all our confidence is found in the Blessed Virgin Mary. God has committed to her the treasury of all good things, in order that everyone may know that through her are obtained every hope, every grace, and all salvation. For this is His will: that we obtain everything through Mary.”
Ven. Pope Pius IX
Every grace which is communicated to this world has a threefold origin: it flows from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, and from the Virgin to us . . . Nothing comes to us except through the mediation of Mary, for such is the will of God. Thus, just as no man goes to the Father but by the Son, so likewise no one goes to Christ except through His Mother. Whosoever will not have recourse to her is trying to fly without wings . . . O Virgin Most Holy, no one abounds in the knowledge of God except through thee; no one, O Mother of God, attains salvation except through thee!”
Pope Leo XIII
For, since it is the will of Divine Providence that we should have the God-Man through Mary, there is no other way for us to receive Christ except from her hands.
Pope St. Pius X
The Child is not found without Mary, His Mother . . . If, then, it is impossible to separate what God has united, it is also certain that you cannot find Jesus except with Mary and through Mary.
Pope St. Pius X
The name of Mary is the name of salvation . . . Hence, let us always pray to this Divine Mother if we desire to ensure our salvation.
St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori
Sweet heart of Mary, be my salvation!
Bl. Pope Pius IX
The heart of Mary is the source of universal salvation: all salvation springs from Mary’s heart . . . The salvation of man having taken place in the heart of Mary, all Christians must consider her, after God, as the source of their life, and as the cause and center of their happiness . . . They must always be turned towards her heart, gaze upon it unceasingly, and make it the object of their aspirations and desires. Outside the heart of Mary, there is only trouble, fear, anxiety, death, and Hell.
St. John Eudes
From http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary18a.htm
Following Christ and trusting anyone else for Salvation is not Salvation. "No other name under heaven and earth", not even Mary.
Thank you for confirming what I wrote was true.
Good Day.
You’re quiet welcome brother
God bless!
A. Using mere men to contradict the inspired word of God.
Q. What do Mormons and Roman Catholics have in common?
Ping me back when "answers to Protestants" publishes "TULIP and the Bible."
The thought of how various denominations drag the wonderful ECFs into the fray. I mean, how many times has an evangelical, Reformed etc. set quotes here where all the ECFs state the Scriptures are the authority and that (the ECFs themselves) they provide commentary and exhortation.
Really think about it. I have been on FR regularly for about a week. What I see are folks arguing salvation from confessions, councils and commentary instead of from the inspired and authoritative Scriptures.
“Really think about it. I have been on FR regularly for about a week. What I see are folks arguing salvation from confessions, councils and commentary instead of from the inspired and authoritative Scriptures.”
I often attempt this, but the Papists are hard to get into such a discussion with the scripture. They usually disappear once you corner them rhetorically into it.
Does the Roman Catholic Church not teach:
Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.(John 3:3-DRV)
Now the above would be a great topic for discussion on the religion forum. You are correct, both Luther and Calvin did draw a lot from the Augustine-Pelagius conflict. You won't see many on both sides admit that. The RCs won't because Augustine is a saint and Reformed because they don't want to point to a CF for argumentative points.
I think what would be most telling is if we took the RC doctrines of today and put it to trial against Augustine's arguments against Pelagius, you would have some very uncomfortable folks around here.
“The RCs won’t because Augustine is a saint and Reformed because they don’t want to point to a CF for argumentative points.
I think what would be most telling is if we took the RC doctrines of today and put it to trial against Augustine’s arguments against Pelagius, you would have some very uncomfortable folks around here.”
I always quote Augustine against the Papists, and I’ve been doing it for a long time now on this very forum. But as for Reformed being hesitant, I’ve never met one that has been. Calvin frequently quotes church Fathers in his Institutes or other works, some he disagrees with, and mentions only to show their position, and others he agrees with. There’s no purpose for it when debating fellow Christians of the more Arminian bent, unless I happen to prefer Augustine’s wording for something, but against Catholics it is always fun and useful.
Excellent post. Interesting how Augustine draws so much from the Scriptures!
Well posts #8 and #9 was a nice “beating behind the wood shed” event on FR.
.....And yet you say that with no proof of a contradiction.....
“Well posts #8 and #9 was a nice “beating behind the wood shed” event on FR.”
For me, it was a Thursday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDRnVPlRzag
This is the tradition you seek:
John 17:
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
I have only been here about a week now and that is exactly what I see.
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