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Locked on 10/19/2013 5:52:30 PM PDT by Jim Robinson, reason:
Enough! |
Posted on 10/18/2013 11:50:16 PM PDT by jodyel
They [i.e. the Gnostics] abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that THE EUCHARIST IS THE FLESH OF OUR SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again. (Letter to Smyrnians 7:1)
now, scoffers come along and deny this central belief of the Christian Faith.
You need a better source...
“In the final analysis, you don’t get to decide whether Catholics are Christians or not. God makes that call, and you aren’t him. Sorry to burst your bubble.”
Well said. That will leave a mark!
Then why not take a wafer home so you can feel that way all the time???
This way, you gotta keep going back to the Church for another 'fix'...
Fortunately there is enough non Catholic history out there that we aren't stuck with only your religion's version...
First off we have the scriptures which proves that your religion is the antithesis of Christianity...So we know that it was not your religion that Jesus was speaking about...
And secondly, we know of the Christians thru out history prior to the 1500s who were tortured and murdered by your religion for refusing to bown down to your popes and pretend to eat Jesus via a piece of bread...Those are the Christians Jesus was speaking to...
Jesus said,' Drink of the cup'...
Well Lord, it just costs too much plus we don't want to get this expensive carpet dirty...So we'll just pretend there's blood in the bread...
Like a beer you mean? I..don’t..think..so..
TAKE ME OFF NOW!
Please do something (preferably permanent) about this person
“In the final analysis, you don’t get to decide whether Catholics are Christians or not. God makes that call, and you aren’t him. Sorry to burst your bubble.”
Boom! I noticed the kook has not yet replied to you.
Thank you! As a Protestant I’ve been disgusted by his/her antics for some time now.
I routinely check the source site. High and low? Not so much. Organizations. Couple names jumped out. Dobson, MacArthur, Stanley keeping company with the Catholics as suspect. It is interesting.
Well, that’d be a big surprise to a lot of Christians, including me. Catholics are very welcome here on FR. Hope you’re ok with that.
I have been dismayed by some of what I have seen from this FReeper, but there is free speech, which FR is proud to champion.
We are not supposed to take things like this personally, though I can’t imagine how a Catholic would not take this as a personal attack on one’s faith.
Remember that Jesus knew this was going to happen. He said that the enemy would strike the shepherd in order to discourage/scatter the sheep. He was talking about Himself but also to the broader Church. He told Peter to tend my sheep, feed my lambs, feed my sheep.
What a poster like this truly needs is prayer.
It is my own faith there was one person who had a "sensory experience" as to the Incarnation, but she was made pregnant by Spirit, not by flesh and blood.
One could go so far as to say she most likely sensed it bodily also, but not by the more usual physical passageway (pardon the expression, but that's as delicate as I could say it). What we even more likely need not guess at, is that she most assuredly experienced the physical aspects of pregnancy itself, and the various sensations and discomforts that most usually entails, which leaves His arrival as a peasant carpenter not *entirely* lacking sensory experiences.
The babe leapt in her womb
Out of all the [Roman] Catholics who have on this site contributed comments to this sort of discussion over the years, is there a single individual who has testified that they too, experienced "Eucharist miracle" such as Lucky Luciano Lanciano has?
Is there even one? If not, why not? Please spare me the "it was sign" reasoning, for to not have that as the usual phenom, is to leave Lucky all but alone in communion (which is a common sharing of the elements) like some heavenly lottery winner.
If it were common phenom, it would be like steak on Mondays, Wednesdays, Fridays, and twice on Sundays, but we know it's not that...
It would help if those seeming to press for there being material change into earthly flesh and blood (as such is known in earthly or carnal fashion) would just come out and SAY it.
But the [Roman] Catholic church ecclesiastical community doesn't actually teach that, now does it?
One can put the words body and blood in big capital letters all they wish, but the wording used never included "physical" as in physically present other than an explanation of it, that He is said to be present "under the forms" of the bread & wine.
Again, it could be helpful to those now pressing for materialistic altering of "substance" to know that the Aristotelian idea of substance could be employed in manner conceptually different than what we know today (from our own present-day materialist philosophies) for the "substance" of a thing, was more it's conceptual function, than it's material composition.
A chair can be made of wood, but wood is not "chair substance". A chair can be made of stone, but stone is not "chair substance" in that instance either --- following the same conceptual understandings as the language used 800 years or so ago to describe the transformation --- as to what it actually was that was being "transformed".
A baker could bake a cake (or an entire series of nearly identical cakes) and fashion from cake dough and icing, set atop the cakes, the forms of a "chair". The baker could even put (or make) a small figurine like say a little monkey with a pope hat to sit in one of the chairs, and other little monkeys looking suspiciously like televangelist with big-hair "monkey" wives to sit in other cake chairs. Remove the monkeys, eat the chairs, and one has eaten "chair substance". (there's a reason why I include this paragraph -- you'll see...)
Do not get me wrong, or mistake my own meaning here, for I am not saying that He (Christ) can not or is not present within that which is consecrated, but rather that although He did indeed come to this earth in the form of a man, born of a virgin, lived as a flesh & blood human being, was crucified and literally died, rose again unto Life, walked again in the form of a man, was seen by hundreds if not thousands, then later (forty days) was witnessed to having miraculously ascended, He did not convert His own followers from being Israelite to becoming cannibals in the same fashion that Papua New Guinea tribesmen were until not that long ago...
When He ascended, were did He go? Is there air to breath there? Is oxygen necessary? Is bread, or beef-steak, or even cabbage and beans needed there for Life?
He chose not PNG savages as His own chosen peoples, but through His own peoples He can convert the PNG tribesman into His own people, one person or individual at a time.
I would venture answering "no" to those last immediate inquiries (as to air & food as we know of them) and say further that it is that Life of Him (the life is in the blood) which He sends to be present to become that which is ritually consecrated, shared, and consumed.
Now as to "body" of the bride of Christ (which is the Church) many are appointed as members, but not all are the same member, or have the same functions. Are not they "the flesh and blood" of the body?
We are all not fingers, thumbs, hands, feet, or an arm or a leg. Yet taken all together (with all other necessary parts) we are still one body (no matter how widely scattered) even if not all of identical "ecclesiastical" community as to earthly organizational administration.
The hand can not say to the foot, "I do not recognize you--you do not look like me, I do not need you to grasp that which needs be grasped" neither the eye that sees have no need for the lungs which breathe.
But not all body parts are all that wonderful to gaze upon. Elbows. Who is it that singles out elbows as singularly beautiful? But we all need them to function, and do miss them when they are either gone, or suffering loss of function.
Did you ever hear the joke about the body parts arguing amongst themselves who would be "boss"? Never mind the punchline for that one, for the time being...
Or the one about the cannibal who "passed" his brother on the trail?
How about the prisoner, on his first day in jail? He hears someone yell out "37!" and everyone starts laughing. A little while later someone yells out "41" and that one gets a few laughs. This keeps occurring over the course of several hours until finally the new jailbird asks someone nearby -- "what is going on? why is everybody laughing when numbers are called out?". It's then explained to him that since most of the guys in that jail had been there a long time, they had told and heard the same jokes so many times, they decided to number them, so that way when in the course of conversation something would come up reminiscent or possibly tangential to one of the jokes, or if someone just wanted to lighten the mood by remembering a joke, they could say the number or unexpectedly yell it out sort of like an unexpected punchline (which is how jokes "work") which then would make people laugh.
After a while, desiring to fit in with the crowd, the new guy yells out "37! but nobody laughs, in fact the whole place went deadly silent. Wondering what went wrong, he turns to the guy nearby and asks "how come nobody laughed?" The guy next to him says, "sometimes, it's all in how you tell it".
I would have no problem with that, for He dwells not in temples made of hands.
But this?
I can't believe I just read that. Who died and made you god? Where in the heck do you get off anointing yourself the arbitrator of who is Christian and who is not? Not even the Pharisees were that presumptuous.
“Well Lord, it just costs too much plus we don’t want to get this expensive carpet dirty...”
The hypocrisy of Protestant anti-Catholics is amazing. Jesus said it was His body yet you don’t believe Him. When you do, get back to me.
“So we’ll just pretend there’s blood in the bread...”
Nope. There’s BLOOD in the FLESH. The bread WAS just bread. Again, hypocrisy on your part doesn’t change truth on His part. You lose again as you always do Iscool.
Catholics are not Christians...sorry to burst your bubble.So jodyel - who do you think are Christians? What denominations are Christian in your view and why? What makes someone, in your view, a Christian? A profession of faith? Baptism? And do tell, what special power or authority do you have and what sect or cult do you hold as the True Church?
“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]
First off we have the scriptures which proves that your religion is the antithesis of Christianity..Ooh, another denial of Catholic Christianity! What sects or denominations ARE Christian, in your world?
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