Posted on 10/20/2013 11:29:26 AM PDT by CHRISTIAN DIARIST
What if ‘Once Saved, Always Saved’ is Wrong?
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Then many of us are going STRAIGHT to hell!
“You are pretending that the tension between free will and predestination is not as “old as them hills”. You seem to have The Answer.”
The tension exists, but it doesn’t mean that the tension isn’t that of the Christian foot stepping on the corrupt “free” will of man.
He maybe less, but whether you are drowning 1,000 feet off short or 100 is irrelevant: you both need a lifeguard.
And What your scenario leaves out is what is here in post 133 .
What you say is true...
I have changed from “it’s wrong” to “It’s a mystery.”
It is not a mystery however if you rightly divide the word of truth from a dispensational point of view...
Sounds like C.S. Lewis.
Seems to involve choice.
So do we bargain? Are we gamblers? Do we accept this out of fear? Does God accept those who choose out of fear alone this monstrous proposition?
I am still working this out but I ask you. WHAT DOES GOD WANT? If you distill the Bible down to one thing, what does he want. You will hear echo’s of what others have told you, but what does your heart say he wants. Have ears to hear. Don’t get distracted by details.
He might want something you can easily give Him or it might be something that will cost you everything.
Now what do you want? Do you want the same things as God. Do you want something different.
As I said, forget step 3.
Christ himself told us what was necessary.
“’Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole mind.’ This is the greatest and the first commandment. And the second is like it, ‘Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
That’s pretty darn clear to me as far as salvation goes. The bible says right out that the Shepherd will do what it takes to go after His sheep. Apart from personally following the aforementioned commandments it’s not much my business how He chooses to go about it.
Sir but you are not the half naked savage roaming the plains. You and I have no excuse...We have heard the Gospel.
I would recommend you not contend with The Almighty. Job 38-41 is a good read on this. So worry not about the Mongolian pagan unless you were called to bring him the Gospel. The man’s fate is between him and God.
Unlike you, we don't have (nor want) a religious hierarchy which claim that it alone has the authority to dictate what the scriptures mean...
We have, by choice, the written words of God only...There are and have been hundreds of millions of bible only believing Christians who have had no trouble finding ample support in the scriptures of and for 'born-again' Christians...
“So everyone without exception, including the Mongolian boy fascinated by fire, lightning, and horse, has this moment, this chance of enlightenment. He is in the Light. He either loves the Light, serves the Light, places his trust n the Light, gains more and more Light, -— or he hates the Light because it exposes his evil deeds, which he loves more than anything.
Then it’s “light’s out.”
Not because the Light failed, but because some willfully blind themselves, or with damned resoluteness, turn away.”
A blasphemous preposition, since it basically claims that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ, since the Mongolian boy will never come to believe in a Christ He knows nothing about, and the scripture never says anything like this, but instead declares all the Gentiles as guilty before God, in need of the preaching of the Gospel, not the “light of conscience” which is really their doom.
It also puts you into a pickle, since it supposes that the Jews who did not believe in Christ did receive it from the Father to believe in the Son. Yet, Christ specifically tells them that they do not believe, because it was not given to them to believe:
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.” (Joh 6:64-65)
It also ignores the unique peculiarities of the Jews in their speech, who can say the “whole world,” and yet mean only the Gentiles, or else the Jews of a particular city, or all the Rabbis. For example, from Gill’s commentary:
“it happened to a certain high priest, that when he went out of the sanctuary, “the whole world” went after him;’’(n)
which could only design the people in the temple. And elsewhere (o) it is said,
“amle ylwk, “the “whole world” has left the Misna, and gone after the “Gemara”;’’
which at most can only intend the Jews; and indeed only a majority of their doctors, who were conversant with these writings: and in another place (p),
“amle ylwk, “the whole world” fell on their faces, but Raf did not fall on his face;’’
where it means no more than the congregation. Once more, it is said (q), when
“R. Simeon ben Gamaliel entered (the synagogue), “the whole world” stood up before him;’’
that is, the people in the synagogue: to which may be added (r),
“when a great man makes a mourning, “the whole world” come to honour him;’’
i.e. a great number of persons attend the funeral pomp: and so these phrases, “the whole world” is not divided, or does not dissent (s); “the whole world” are of opinion (t), are frequently met with in the Talmud, by which, an agreement among the Rabbins, in certain points, is designed; yea, sometimes the phrase, “all the men of the world” (u), only intend the inhabitants of a city where a synagogue was, and, at most, only the Jews: and so this phrase, “all the world”, or “the whole world”, in Scripture, unless when it signifies the whole universe, or the habitable earth, is always used in a limited sense, either for the Roman empire, or the churches of Christ in the world, or believers, or the present inhabitants of the world, or a part of them only, Luk_2:1; and so it is in this epistle, 1Jo_5:19; where the whole world lying in wickedness is manifestly distinguished from the saints, who are of God, and belong not to the world; and therefore cannot be understood of all the individuals in the world”
(From Gill’s Commentary on 1 John 2:2, quoting (n) T. Bab. Yoma, fol. 71. 2. (o) T. Bab. Bava Metzia, fol. 33. 2. (p) T. Bab. Megilla, fol. 22. 2. (q) T. Bab. Horayot, fol. 13. 2. (r) Piske Toseph. Megilla, art. 104. (s) T. Bab. Cetubot, fol. 90. 2. & Kiddushin, fol. 47. 2. & 49. 1. & 65. 2. & Gittin, fol. 8. 1. & 60. 2. (t) T. Bab. Kiddushin, fol. 48. 1. (u) Maimon. Hilch. Tephilla, c. 11. sect. 16.)
The Pauline ministry is the church age of which I am living in...Regardless...Jesus did not fellowship with those he preached to who were not followers of him...
What it amounts to is a matter of semantics of what fellowship means...
It is not a mystery however if you rightly divide the word of truth from a dispensational point of view...
Good dialogue however I think your definition of the son is incorrect. Adam was once a son of God. The sinful son coming back and being restored is the one that departed the Garden in rebellion.
One can also interpret this parable with the audience involved. The son that stayed was the self righteous Pharisees and the rebellious son were the prostitutes, publicans and other sinners.
That is not what God intended for any of us...
Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Heb_5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
It’s a mystery. Imagine that you had a life-after-death experience and saw heaven and encountered God. Then you were revived and you were groping for words to explain this experience. Holy cow, there are no human words. There are just no words. How do you think the disciples of the NT or the Jewish scholars of the OT could find the right words? There are NO HUMAN WORDS to describe heaven or God.
I could not argue against your interpretation in favor of mine. They are both spiritual interpretations and correct.
Forget the lottery ticket. Take a look at God’s Sovereignty in the Bible! In your life!
“Exactly. Some people say “how can it be possible for one to lose their salvation?” Of course it is not something that falls out of your pocket and you lose like your car keys, but you can throw it away. Nobody can take you out of God’s hand, but you have the choice to jump out yourself. As 2 Peter 2: 20-21 says,
“For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
Right on! That’s how I describe it to my friends of other denominations who try to stir up debate. Salvation in Jesus Christ is NOT like the t.v. remote control.
We MUST accept it and then proceed to nurture our RELATIONSHIP with the LIVING God throughout our lives. We do NOT achieve sinless perfection here on earth but we have opportunity to grow and repent-(turn away from our sin when we reckognize it)
My ex-wife was a “once saved/always saved” person. She believed that when she repeated a prayer at the age of 4 that a Sunday school teacher told her, she’s all set. She can talk the talk when in the right company, but she lives for number 1 - herself, which is why she is my ex. We had a wedding, but she never “got married”. It was a business deal for her. Never could get the relationship going with this person who was forever ‘independent’ above all things.
I think God expects us to ‘marry’ Him and BE married to Him. But He did give us our free will - first to be able to choose Him and then we always have the option of saying “no thanks”. He will not force us to stay.
But He makes the rules, not us.
Psst...Glad you noticed that.
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