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CDF confirms Church ban on Communion for divorced/remarried
Catholic Culture ^ | October 22, 2013 | Diogenes

Posted on 10/22/2013 2:05:49 PM PDT by NYer

In a lengthy statement published in L’Osservatore Romano, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) has strongly affirmed the Church’s teaching that Catholics who are divorced and remarried may not receive Communion.

Following the announcement that an extraordinary meeting of the Synod of Bishops will be held in 2014 to discuss pastoral care for families, there has been widespread speculation that the Synod might make a change in the Church’s rule withholding Communion from Catholics who are divorced and remarried. But in a statement made public on October 22, Archbishop Gerhard Ludwig Müller observed that the Church’s teaching is not subject to change.

L’Osservatore Romano published the “extensive contribution” by Archbishop Müller in its entirety, giving unusual prominence to the statement. The Vatican newspaper explained that public question on “this pressing subject” called for explanation of the Church’s stand.

Archbishop Müller, too, acknowledged the keen interest in the topic. He said at the start of his statement that the “increasing number of persons affected in countries of ancient Christian tradition” had made the pastoral care for Catholics who are divorced and remarried a matter of urgent pastoral priority.

The CDF leader observed that both Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have called for new efforts to provide spiritual support for Catholics who are divorced and remarried. However, he said, “the care of remarried divorcees must not be reduced to the question of receiving the Eucharist.”

Archbishop Müller insisted that the care for divorced/remarried Catholics “must be explored in a manner that is consistent with Catholic doctrine on marriage.” He noted that the Church has clearly and consistently taught that the bond of Christian marriage is indissoluble. “It designates a reality that comes from God and is therefore no longer at man’s disposal,” the CDF prefect wrote.

Examining the issue in light of Scripture and Tradition, the archbishop explains that unless a marriage has been found to be null by an ecclesiastical tribunal, divorced and remarried Catholics are obliged to refrain from receiving Communion. The single exception allowed by pastoral practice, he said, comes when a 2nd marital union cannot be ended (perhaps for the sake of children), and the partners make a commitment to live as brother and sister.

Archbishop Müller explicitly rejected the suggestion that divorced/remarried Catholics should make their own decision on whether they should receive Communion. That argument, he noted, “based on a problematical concept of ‘conscience,’ was rejected by a document of the CDF in 1994.” Similarly he rejected the policies of Orthodox churches allowing for divorce in some cases. “This practice cannot be reconciled with God’s will, as expressed unambiguously in Jesus’ sayings about the indissolubility of marriage,” he wrote. Throughout his statement Archbishop Müller strongly emphasized the Christian understanding of marriage as a sacrament. “If marriage is secularized or regarded as a purely natural reality, its sacrament character is obscured,” he remarked.

The archbishop did offer one argument that might be pursued by the 2014 Synod, suggesting that many Christians are not entering into valid sacramental marriages. He explained:

Today’s mentality is largely opposed to the Christian understanding of marriage, with regard to its indissolubility and its openness to children. Because many Christians are influenced by this, marriages nowadays are probably invalid more often than they were previously, because there is a lack of desire for marriage in accordance with Catholic teaching, and there is too little socialization within an environment of faith. Therefore assessment of the validity of marriage is important and can help to solve problems.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: catholic; cdf; communion
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1 posted on 10/22/2013 2:05:49 PM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; GregB; Berlin_Freeper; SumProVita; narses; bboop; SevenofNine; Ronaldus Magnus; tiki; ...
Fr. Z weigh's in with this piece from his blog - WDTPRS.


Archbp. Müller (CDF) on Communion for divorced/remarried. Liberals’ panic to follow

In tomorrow’s edition of L’Osservatore Romano there is a long essay (4000+ words) by the Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Archbp. Müller, on the hotly-debate issue of Communion for the divorced and remarried. (I haven’t checked it against the Italian yet.)

I mentioned that I had been hearing rumblings about a piece in L’O for a little while. This seems to be it.

Müller opposes the various solutions that have been presented for the divorced and remarried. This is not to say that the Prefect believes it impossible for the Church ultimately to find a solution to the dilemma. Rejecting some proposed solutions is different from rejecting any possible solution. (Please, those of you in Columbia Heights, don’t freak out when you read that and dash about like Chicken Little. Theologians make distinctions. Rejection of proposed solutions could be part of a process.)

At the core of Müller’s piece there seems to be a dismantling of all the arguments that depend mostly on “mercy” without the concomitant dimension of justice, the Lord’s own teaching, etc.

This is going to be spun by the left as the Bad Guy’s attempt to stop Francis.

Müller won’t be presented as the voice of reason. No, he will be the Bad Guy.

Fishwrap will say something nasty about him, something personal, like, “Now that Müller is secure in his appointment as Prefect, he feels free to attack ‘mercy’.”

Then they will find a picture of Müller scowling.

It is so predictable.

Here is a sample from Müller’s piece:

A further case for the admission of remarried divorcees to the sacraments is argued in terms of mercy. Given that Jesus himself showed solidarity with the suffering and poured out his merciful love upon them, mercy is said to be a distinctive quality of true discipleship. This is correct, but it misses the mark when adopted as an argument in the field of sacramental theology. The entire sacramental economy is a work of divine mercy and it cannot simply be swept aside by an appeal to the same. An objectively false appeal to mercy also runs the risk of trivializing the image of God, by implying that God cannot do other than forgive. The mystery of God includes not only his mercy but also his holiness and his justice. If one were to suppress these characteristics of God and refuse to take sin seriously, ultimately it would not even be possible to bring God’s mercy to man. Jesus encountered the adulteress with great compassion, but he said to her “Go and do not sin again” (Jn 8:11). God’s mercy does not dispense us from following his commandments or the rules of the Church. Rather it supplies us with the grace and strength needed to fulfil them, to pick ourselves up after a fall, and to live life in its fullness according to the image of our heavenly Father.


2 posted on 10/22/2013 2:06:21 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: NYer
Many years ago when we had to fast all night for communion, I was delivering newspapers on Easter Sunday with my bro. A nice lady gave us some candy. I ate a couple pieces and then realized I broke my fast.

God patted me on the head and said "Don't worry about it". I received communion with absolutely no ill feeling.

A vow does not condemn you to a life of hell. Make your own decision. All these rules are man made.

Gays and abortionists...whole different story.

3 posted on 10/22/2013 2:14:01 PM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: NYer

Gee its nice to know that Teddy Kennedy is finally ineligible for communion. What about folks like VP Biden or Nancy Pelosi who firmly support abortion and birth control?


4 posted on 10/22/2013 2:15:45 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: Sacajaweau
All these rules are man made.

1 Cor. 11: 27-29?

5 posted on 10/22/2013 2:22:30 PM PDT by Pyro7480 (Viva Cristo Rey!)
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To: Sacajaweau
I received communion with absolutely no ill feeling.

🎶♫Feelings, wo-o-o feelings, ♩♬ wo-o-o, feel you again in my arms.🎶♫♩

Jesus Himself instituted the Eucharist, as documented in John 6.

One would hope that if you are looking to literally commune with the Creator of everything, who dwarfs you like an elephant to an ant to the power of infinity, that you would care enough to not mix Him with cheap sugar.

Kids may make mistakes, as do adults. But at least adults should own up to mistakes, not dismiss the rules as being arbitrary.

6 posted on 10/22/2013 2:22:40 PM PDT by Yossarian
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To: NYer
There is a Commandment against “bearing false witness against they neighbor”

Once granted a formal “Annulment” by a Church Tribunal, no Catholic is under ANY obligation to reveal that fact to anyone, other than another Priest prior to getting remarried in a Catholic ceremony.

Also? Yes, a VALID marriage can not end through Civil Divorce.

However? The Church Tribunal does not “end” a Valid Marriage. A Church Tribunal either affirms that a Marriage was indeed valid, or that it was never a Sacramental Marriage.

In other words? If the Marriage was NEVER valid in the First Place? There are lots of remarried Catholics who, indeed, had an INVALID First Marriage who never subjected themselves to the Annulment Tribunal.

There is an “Internal Forum” or Conscience provision in the Catholic faith. Recognized by MANY Popes, MANY Vatican Councils and which is a valid response to this issue. In fact, the “Internal Forum” or the INFORMED Conscience as final authority in ALL matters, has been Church Doctrine on all issues, not just divorce and remarriage.

Yes, it can be abused. So what? Does anyone honestly want to claim that the formal annulment process in the “External Form” is not abused?

Those who obsess over this issue are often being judgmental, bearing false witness, and are violating a Commandment in that regard.

7 posted on 10/22/2013 2:22:54 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
The "internal forum" is not applicable to public matters such as marriage.

Internal Forum. Sometimes it is suggested to individuals or couples that they can resolve marital issues concerning a first marriage in the "internal forum." This means essentially in the confessional or in the privacy of their conscience. Someone who is divorced and remarried will be told that they do not have to seek a Decree of Nullity to validate the present marriage, rather being convinced in their own conscience that their first marriage was invalid they can return to the sacraments. This is not, however, the case. Marriage is not a private affair but a social institution, one safeguarded by the Church according to the will of Christ. The Holy See has ruled out the internal forum solution as a valid way of resolving marital validity questions. Such issues must be submitted to the Church's canonical processes (a marriage tribunal).

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/annulment.htm

8 posted on 10/22/2013 2:52:35 PM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Sacajaweau

Thou shall not commit adultery.... you don’t have to follow it if you don’t want to ( there’s that free will thing) BUT it is God’s rule.

by the way are you still a practicing Catholic?


9 posted on 10/22/2013 2:56:41 PM PDT by longfellowsmuse (last of the living nomads)
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To: BlatherNaut
There is always a turf battle in ANY institution.
The Catholic Church is NOT immune.
There is pride and envy and egotistical infighting on many fronts in the Church, and this has ALWAYS been the case.
Even Peter and Paul had their fights on doctrine.
We can both post on and on with documents from various sources and authorities.
The fact remains that GOD has the final authority.
The fact remains that God's servants are Earth are imperfect human beings who might make bad decisions in any Marriage Tribunal.
The fact remains that NO Pope, speaking from the Throne of St. Peter, claiming full infallibility, has EVER said that Divorced Catholics could not, under any circumstance, remarry without a Marriage Tribunal.
The fact REMAINS that if a Priests ABSOLVES Catholics, in the Confessional, based on an “internal forum” or “Conscience” decision, that that forgiveness STANDS!

Correct?

Do you claim that the Church has EVER invalidated an absolution granted in the Confessional?

10 posted on 10/22/2013 3:16:27 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Yossarian

Kids may make mistakes, as do adults. But at least adults should own up to mistakes, not dismiss the rules as being arbitrary.

***
Well said!


11 posted on 10/22/2013 3:26:11 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Let me hear what God the LORD will speak. -Ps85)
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To: Kansas58

they neighbor

**
Is that anything like thy neighbor?


12 posted on 10/22/2013 3:27:29 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Let me hear what God the LORD will speak. -Ps85)
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To: GreyFriar; Kansas58
Gee its nice to know that Teddy Kennedy is finally ineligible for communion. What about folks like VP Biden or Nancy Pelosi who firmly support abortion and birth control?

I will spare you the "that's a great question!" (which it is) and cite Kansas58:

The Church Tribunal does not “end” a Valid Marriage. A Church Tribunal either affirms that a Marriage was indeed valid, or that it was never a Sacramental Marriage.

In other words? If the Marriage was NEVER valid in the First Place? There are lots of remarried Catholics who, indeed, had an INVALID First Marriage who never subjected themselves to the Annulment Tribunal.

Building on that statement, one delves deeper into the conscience (a/k/a soul) of those responsible. A tribunal can only ask a series of questions to determine the validity of a marriage and make a determination based on the respondent's responses. This neglects the conscience, thus leaving that to the individual and God. IOW, a catholic who marries in a "starry eyed" state, knowing full well that the impending marriage is doomed to failure, can later turn around and submit a litany of valid arguments as to why the marriage was invalid. The church tribunal can only act on what has been presented; it cannot read the heart of the individual.

That's a rather long winded way of saying that if I skirted pre-marital classes and married someone I knew was all wrong, then later divorced, I could justify the request for annulment based on any one of a series of valid qualifications for dissolution of a sacramental marriage. Ultimately, regardless of how the church rules (it is human), I will stand before God one day and He will be the judge. Does that make any sense? It's a matter of conscience.

13 posted on 10/22/2013 4:16:13 PM PDT by NYer ("The wise man is the one who can save his soul. - St. Nimatullah Al-Hardini)
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To: Kansas58
Do you claim that the Church has EVER invalidated an absolution granted in the Confessional?

Red herring. Church teaching is clear and unequivocal on this matter. Our Lord established the Catholic Church - the Bride of Christ - to lead us to heaven, "and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it". Deliberate disobedience to Church teaching is deliberate disobedience to God, and He knows our motivations if we try to do an end run around His teachings (a decision that we will some day have to answer for). It's a struggle to obey teachings we personally find difficult (and sometimes even repugnant) "but with God all things are possible".

St. Pio: "The will of the authorities is the will of God."

14 posted on 10/22/2013 5:24:38 PM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Sacajaweau
A vow does not condemn you to a life of hell. Make your own decision. All these rules are man made. breaking a vow can....all rules are man made by the authority given to the catholic church by christ...be careful when ignoring them....
15 posted on 10/22/2013 5:35:29 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Sacajaweau
All these rules are man made.

Someone famous once said, "If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector."

And, "he who hears you, hears Me."

FWIW.

16 posted on 10/22/2013 5:40:07 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: Kansas58
Priests ABSOLVES Catholics, in the Confessional, based on an “internal forum” or “Conscience” decision, that that forgiveness STANDS!

nope...when a priest forgives your sin in a confessional, it is based on your intention to not commit the same sin over again.....if you continue your sexual relationship with a second wife....you are still in a state of sin.

17 posted on 10/22/2013 5:42:15 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Bigg Red
Hey, I am human too.
Thy

I am not in the hood lol

18 posted on 10/22/2013 5:45:29 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
Do you claim that the Church has EVER invalidated an absolution granted in the Confessional?

happens all the time...if you make an invalid confession....ie. no remorse for the sin, no intention to at least attempt to not repeat the sin, for a confession to impress others that you are going to confession, several other situations result in an INVALID confession...

19 posted on 10/22/2013 5:46:34 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: Sacajaweau

Non serviam


20 posted on 10/22/2013 5:50:38 PM PDT by pbear8 (the Lord is my light and my salvation)
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To: Kansas58
The fact remains that GOD has the final authority.

What are we to conclude from this? No one here is God.

The fact remains that God's servants are Earth are imperfect human beings who might make bad decisions in any Marriage Tribunal.

Again, what are we to conclude from this? Aren't we fallible, too? We must abide by church rulings, just as we must abide by the decisions of civil marriage courts. Otherwise we place our individual authority above that of the Church.

The fact remains that NO Pope, speaking from the Throne of St. Peter, claiming full infallibility, has EVER said that Divorced Catholics could not, under any circumstance, remarry without a Marriage Tribunal.

The fact remains that NO Pope, speaking from the Throne of St. Peter, claiming full infallibility, has EVER said that marriage is reserved to one man and one woman. But it's hardly necessary, since that is the Tradition of the Church.

IOW, very few dogmas, and no disciplines that I know of, are promulgated by the pope, invoking his charism of infallibility.

21 posted on 10/22/2013 5:52:26 PM PDT by St_Thomas_Aquinas ( Isaiah 22:22, Matthew 16:19, Revelation 3:7)
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To: terycarl
Nope, that is not what I meant.
The “Internal Forum” solution to the remarriage issue MIGHT involve telling a Priest in the Confessional, of your concerns.
If the Priest tells the Catholic that he or she must trust their conscience on the matter?
IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME!
And do you think you have more authority than the Priest?
22 posted on 10/22/2013 7:29:51 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: BlatherNaut
This is an Illogical statement, and I am free to challenge the logic of any Church authority.
When the Church is OBVIOUSLY conflicted, I must resort to my own conscience.
Yes, Marriage is generally PUBLIC, so what?
Annulment is NOT Public, though it can be an invasion of privacy and provoke the unstable and stir the pot when it is least helpful -— the general public and the Parish members do not get much involved in Annulment “ceremonies” do they?
There is NO “Registry” posted about who has obtained an Annulment is there?
So what business is it of yours?
The fact is, any Catholic who obtains an Annulment is free to NEVER tell anyone of the Annulment, and it is none of YOUR business.
My guess is that some of the busy-body gossips on this thread HAVE born false witness against people in such situations.
YOU NEVER KNOW the status of a previous marriage for sure, as NOBODY is obligated to tell you!
That being the case?
Any Cleric who rests a case on the “public” aspect of marriage, alone, without much more, is making a fool of himself.
23 posted on 10/22/2013 7:38:01 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
This is an Illogical statement

How so? Church teaching is clear. Divorcing and then entering into a second marriage without obtaining a decree of nullity for the first marriage is adultery, and anyone who takes this path is living in an objective state of mortal sin. Those who choose to ignore this teaching and refuse to submit to Church authority are in effect setting themselves up as their own ultimate authority. In such cases, one has to wonder why such an individual would even care about Church teachings of any sort.

No one is forced to be Catholic. We' re all free to take it or leave it. We're also free to defy God and to suffer the consequences.

24 posted on 10/23/2013 7:14:11 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut
Nonsense!
A “Decree of Nullity” does NOT create an invalid marriage, it only recognizes that said marriage was and is invalid.
You obviously do not understand the process.
There are MANY authoritative Church leaders who have talked at length about the exceptions involved.

And, it is illogical to say that “Marriage is Public therefore -—” at all on this issue. It is an ignorant, contradictory statement in that:

ANNULMENT even if the formal, External Forum is used, is PRIVATE!

Nobody gets to know the results without the consent of those involved.

So, what does all your pointless busy-body nonsense mean?

It means that you, more than likely, have violated a Commandment against others if you have judged them on this issue.

YOU HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THE FACTS IN ANY CASE MIGHT BE!

Maybe they used the “Internal Forum” or the Conscience provisions in Church teaching.

Maybe they instead, or ALSO, eventually sought a formal, External Forum Decree of Nullity.

You do not know. You do not deserve to know. There is something wrong with you if you think it is your place to know such things, or to judge such matters.

25 posted on 10/23/2013 8:12:24 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
There are MANY authoritative Church leaders who have talked at length about the exceptions involved. They can talk all they want, but at the end of the day, the only official, authoritive teaching is that of the Magisterium.

"By the Magisterium we mean the teaching office of the Church. It consists of the Pope and Bishops. Christ promised to protect the teaching of the Church : "He who hears you, hears me; he who rejects your rejects me, he who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10. 16)."

http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/chura4.htm

26 posted on 10/23/2013 10:26:14 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Kansas58
7. The mistaken conviction of a divorced and remarried person that he may receive Holy Communion normally presupposes that personal conscience is considered in the final analysis to be able, on the basis of one's own convictions(15), to come to a decision about the existence or absence of a previous marriage and the value of the new union. However, such a position is inadmissable(16). Marriage, in fact, because it is both the image of the spousal relationship between Christ and his Church as well as the fundamental core and an important factor in the life of civil society, is essentially a public reality.

CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH CONCERNING THE RECEPTION OF HOLY COMMUNION BY THE DIVORCED AND REMARRIED MEMBERS OF THE FAITHFUL

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_14091994_rec-holy-comm-by-divorced_en.html

27 posted on 10/23/2013 10:42:28 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut

Yes, and MANY BISHOPS agree with what I have posted.

In fact, those who believe that their Marriage is INVALID and have made that decision in the “Private Forum” are even ENCOURAGED to make that fact known, if later in life an actual Annulment process, through a Tribunal in the External Forum, takes place.

In other words? The CHURCH and CHURCH AUTHORITY take “Internal Forum” and “Conscience” decisions into account.

What do you say about that, you judgmental know it all?

I suggest that you wait to condemn anyone until YOU become a Bishop or a Cardinal.

You do NOT know what you are talking about. You do NOT known how to interpret these issues at all.


28 posted on 10/23/2013 3:33:34 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: BlatherNaut
Annulment is a PRIVATE reality, which NOBODY needs to be told about.

Not even the PRIEST giving Communion has the right to demand information about any Formal Annulment Decree.

ONLY a Priest conducting a MARRIAGE Ceremony has any right to inquire on such matters.

And? This is also the ONLY time ANY Catholic is required to even address the issue.

So? Many think you are wrong. There is NOTHING you can do about the millions of Catholics, and literally THOUSANDS of Priests and Bishops who think you are wrong.

The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith led the Inquisition. They have been wrong before, they are wrong now, and NO Pope has ever declared that the Internal Forum is NEVER allowed in cases of remarriage.

You, btw, are a rules-and-regs idiot. Someone could, LITERALLY, commit murder upon the former spouse and people like you would have no problem with the living spouse then “qualifying” under your absurd rules, for a full Catholic wedding.

Again, this subject is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS, and I am sure that many who obsess on such matters are, themselves, guilty of bearing false witness.

29 posted on 10/23/2013 3:40:19 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
And do you think you have more authority than the Priest?

I have been goimg to confession for 69 years....NEVER has the priest suggested that I use my own conscience as arbiter for the sin....unfortunately....I was always advised on what the rules were and that I must abide by them....a sin is a sin....you don't get to use a lax conscience to justify wrongdoing.

30 posted on 10/23/2013 7:21:08 PM PDT by terycarl (common sense prevails over all)
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To: terycarl
Have you ever had to say, “The ex is nuts, she might do harm to herself or others if I request a formal annulment, I know that she told friends and other family members that she married me to get out of the house, as her mother was certifiably insane and violent. It is not appropriate to stir the pot with a formal annulment. I know now that the marriage was not valid. I intend to live my life accordingly”
The Priest then asks, perhaps, about relations with other women, now, out of wedlock.
You then ask the Priest if he would marry you.
The Priest, most likely, will consider the request.
And if you must get married in a Civil ceremony, after this Confession?
The Priest will, most likely, still serve Communion to you.
You are, frankly, not qualified to comment on the decision of the person involved, or the Priest. The above scenario, or something close to it, happens thousands of times every year within the Church.
31 posted on 10/23/2013 7:48:29 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: terycarl
nope...when a priest forgives your sin in a confessional, it is based on your intention to not commit the same sin over again.....if you continue your sexual relationship with a second wife....you are still in a state of sin.

Uh LOL OK and the solution would be what then? Divorce which would be what? Sin is sin. Getting mad at your neighbor or spouse without just cause, lieing to someone, wanting your neighbors property and plotting to take it, and other sins. So which one condemns you? How many sins does it take? How great a sin does it have to be? Answer? One sin even the least of them without salvation through Jesus Christ which we are not worthy of but receive through Grace by faith.

Divorce brings parts of the previous marriage into the next one and issues that were there in the first as well. Even the innocent party in the divorce will have some issues. Can they be overcame? Yes. The act of an at fault divorcee remarrying is one sin. Can it be forgiven? You betcha. Ask forgiveness, learn, try in earnest to do better, and put it behind you, while focusing on a GOD centered new marriage.

My wife was divorced due to abuse, adultery, and abandonment, by her spouse. Her preacher knew the circumstances. When she met me {a young late 20's widower} she asked him about dating and her future and ours if it went that far, He told her her husband ended the marriage when he bedded someone else. In this case it was a very young teenage kid.

Ironically one of the persons behind the scenes right before our marriage was two Nuns who were counseling and protecting her as she was in the hospital at the time and only a few persons knew where. Long story but she became a quad when we were dating.

After a lot of prayers, a lot of counseling we married a second marriage for both of us. 28 year it will be next month. What GOD puts on your heart it is best to follow.

Look I'm a sinner. When I came of age I knew sin and it convicted me. Jesus Christ found me in my early teens. I didn't find Him He wasn't lost but I was. Did I stumble, fall, and sin afterward? You Betcha. I've had to pick myself up out of the dirt more times than I can recall or keep count of. There is remorse, prayer for forgiveness, and I try, try, again. Thankfully several temptations I have not fallen for and at my age now I see no real pleasures would come from it and I realize the pain it would cost others especially my wife whom I have remained faithful and her to me.

Any or all of our sins bring the fall. No goodness we can do, no penance, no acts other than a contrite heart in prayer to The Lord can help us. We are indeed to come to Him like a child to their father or mother who has done wrong. We can and we are forgiven. Being forgiven by GOD through Christ still doesn't excuse us nor stop the earthly cause and effect our wrongs did and as such we pay an earthly price here on earth or rather we suffer for our deeds in an earthly manner in some cases.

It is what we do with the choice of accepting GOD's gift of mercy and salvation through His Son that determines our eternal state. Denying a remarried couple who have asked GOD's forgiveness and are faithful to each other communion is wrong. We ALL fall. Now it Joe or Jane remarried and was sleeping around on their spouse? Yea. That's good cause till they repent. But if you deny it because of a second marriage then certainly it should be denied to ones who lie, covet, use GOD's name in vain, etc as well?

Communion in the churches I attended meant you examine your heart. It wasn't just a remembrance of Christ death and resurrection for our sins, it was also a time to cleanse and reflect on what was in our hearts, such as unjust anger, any sins you had not addressed with The Lord, etc, and to let it go or address it and resolve it before taking communion.

32 posted on 10/23/2013 8:25:56 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: All

It seems to be lost in the translation that this deals with a specific Catholic issue. For Catholics, if you are not married in the Catholic Church, your marriage is not considered to be sacramental, and you are therefore ‘living in sin’ from a Catholic standpoint. If you choose a non-Catholic wedding, you are not considered married by the Catholic church. If you are not Catholic, I do not see why this would bother you. If you are Catholic, you should be informed about the implications.

As far as I know, you cannot be married in a Catholic Church if you have a previous Catholic marriage that has not been formally annulled. This is not a decision made by individual priests. Proof of annulment must be provided before a second Catholic wedding will be allowed. So although annulments are private, if someone is known to have had a church wedding and a subsequent divorce, if the second marriage is a Catholic ceremony, there was an annulment.

I don’t think anyone here is ‘judging’ anyone else, there are just a lot of Catholics who don’t realize that any non-Catholic ceremony is not considered valid by the Catholic church.

My $.02

Love,
O2


33 posted on 10/23/2013 9:11:09 PM PDT by omegatoo (You know you'll get your money's worth...become a monthly donor!)
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To: omegatoo
Let me ask you something then. If say a woman had an abortion would she be denied communion for life without means of forgiveness and repant? Can repent bring back that life? Should she be forgiven? IMO if sincere yes of course. The problems with these doctrines on remarriage are they have no forgiveness, no way a person could repent for that matter Biblical without doing additional sin, and place laws over Grace and forgiveness.

I understand a Priest not being able to marry couples outside the church. That was explained to me 32 years ago by my cousin I asked to officiate my first marriage. That is any churches right. Preacher at the courthouse was glad to do the honors. When my wife passed 4 years later my cousin did the service for her funeral at my request. He was allowed to do that though not a Catholic service. We were Protestants.

We are all living in sin but for those whom Christ has called and accept His call and Grace our sins are forgiven. All will continue to sin until their days on this earth are no more. Such is the state of man and this cursed world we must be in till The Lord calls us home. Should we try and sin? No. It should convict our conscience. The only sin man can not be forgiven of is their final rejection of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior without accepting GOD's free gift of salvation.

Christ taught on marriage and remarrying. Yes He called it sin. He said it was because of our hearts it had been allowed.

Matthew ch 19 1After Jesus had finished saying these things, he left Galilee and went southward to the region of Judea and into the area east of the Jordan River. 2Vast crowds followed him there, and he healed their sick. 3Some Pharisees came and tried to trap him with this question: “Should a man be allowed to divorce his wife for any reason?” 4“Haven’t you read the Scriptures?” Jesus replied. “They record that from the beginning ‘God made them male and female.’£ 5And he said, ‘this explains why a man leaves his father and mother and is joined to his wife, and the two are united into one.’£ 6Since they are no longer two but one, let no one separate them, for God has joined them together.” 7“Then why did Moses say a man could merely write an official letter of divorce and send her away?”£ they asked. 8Jesus replied, “Moses permitted divorce as a concession to your hard-hearted wickedness, but it was not what God had originally intended. 9And I tell you this, a man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery—unless his wife has been unfaithful.”£ 10Jesus’ disciples then said to him, “Then it is better not to marry!” 11“Not everyone can accept this statement,” Jesus said. “Only those whom God helps. 12Some are born as eunuchs, some have been made that way by others, and some choose not to marry for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven. Let anyone who can, accept this statement.”

It boils down to this. The placing of burdens upon people laws which many including those counted as righteous could not live under. It is laws without mercy. The Catholic church as I understand it sees such a marriage as a constant state of adultery. Now by the laws then if that couple divorced they would be doing what? Committing it yet again. See where I'm coming from? Their divorce would not correct it rather it would cause additional sin. Biblically there has to be a means to ask forgiveness, repent, and the sin be put behind you. IOW Go and sin no more.

When you start getting into how this sin or that sin is worse than the other we are shown one clear and precise example of unacceptable sexual behaviors and that is homosexuality which is considered an abomination, also sin is fornication, and sex outside the marriage if married aka adultery.

Same sex marriage as such is not a Holy Union as no Bible Based church by GOD's Law can marry same sex before GOD. Now then can gays be forgiven in the church and recieve communion? Yes by simply asking forgiveness and repent. Meaning turn away from the act. Right? Yet married heterosexuals who divorced and remarried then remained faithful can't be forgiven? What is missing here? It's Dogma over Grace. It denies forgiveness if that is true.

Who marries who? Marriage is a man and a woman united before GOD the two become as one. It should be IMO till death do they part and that should be the focus to make the marriage work but that takes two persons being on the same page in life. Is Joe and Jill's marriage in a church where Joe or Jill next year cheats more sacred before The Lord than Bob and Jane obtaining a license and either having an Elder or even declaring before GOD themselves man and wife more valid a marriage? Joe and Jill may well stay together till death do they part and be faithful to one another. Bob may cheat the rest of his life.

I don't condone divorce. All too often it is too easy to obtain and for invalid reasons. I'm realistic enough though to understand in this imperfect world sometimes it is the wisest option available and also in some cases is remarrying afterward. Try to do better and not repeat it. Try we must but perfect we will never be on this earth. We will always be sinners in need of a savior and His salvation during our earthly journey.

34 posted on 10/23/2013 10:19:46 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: cva66snipe

I believe God will forgive ANY sin. I believe He forgives us even when we don’t deserve to be forgiven. I believe He forgives us even when we don’t know he does. I believe He has forgiven me for things I haven’t even done yet. I think confession is not necessarily where we are forgiven, but where God lets us know we are forgiven. I also believe He is offended and hurt when we try rationalize sinful behavior by ignoring His teachings and saying, “I know God’s law says this is a sin, but I don’t think it is, and I know better, so not only will I continue to do it, I will try to convince everybody it is not a sin so I won’t feel guilty about doing it.”

I do believe some sins are worse than others, and in my opinion, non-sacramental marriage is not even in the same galaxy as ‘homosexual marriage’. But to Catholics it is still a serious sin. And being Catholic I try to avoid the big ones whenever possible, but of course, like everyone, I fail all too often. I think it is dangerous to say “that should not be a sin”, especially about the ones that are literally written in stone.

Non-Catholics are not required to believe that non-sacramental marriages are ‘living in sin’. Catholics are, or else they are Pelosi Catholics who pick and choose which sins they will agree with God about(which means not really Catholic). Catholics are not required to never sin...thank God. What we should do, is acknowledge when we stray from our Church’s teachings and try to get ourselves back on track, because we believe the Catholic Church’s teachings are God’s teachings. Could other churches’ teachings also get you to heaven? Of course.

As far as the Catholic Church’s solution to the problem of civil divorce, you can either try to get an annulment, or you just don’t get married again. If your first marriage was valid and sacramental, that cannot be undone. Your only other option is to remain unmarried or if already remarried live ‘as brother and sister’ in order to keep a family together. That is the perfect solution to an imperfect situation. Of course in the real world, things are rarely perfect. Will God understand if someone remarries outside the church? I think so. I think one big flaw in this whole situation is mentioned in the article. People are entering into non-valid marriages, and the priests and pre-Cana/etc are not working to prevent these mistakes from being made, because no one wants to counsel people NOT to get married. And the annulment process is also flawed, being cumbersome and difficult. Not that it should be easy, but some things are obvious, such as when a spouse is abusive or leaves and re-marries.

One of our parish priests always says “baby steps”. If you can’t say you are truly sorry for something that is defined by the Church as a sin, and you know you are going to keep doing it, then at least acknowledge that it is a sin and pray that you might one day be at least a little bit sorry that your actions may have offended God. Don’t redefine the sin to fit your desires...that is, I think, a much worse sin.

And like I said earlier, this all comes from a Catholic point of view. Other religions don’t have these restrictions, and I don’t think anyone here is trying to impose Catholic doctrine on non-Catholics, this is just a clarification of Catholic teaching on marriage as it pertains to Catholics. I don’t believe the Catholic Church thinks all non-Catholics go to hell...I certainly don’t. But I do believe this country is headed down that road, and not in a small part because people are trying to eliminate the idea that sin even exists.

And I am by no means an expert on Catholic teachings, I just try to follow them, and I’ve had some experience with some of this.

Love,
O2


35 posted on 10/24/2013 12:34:38 AM PDT by omegatoo (You know you'll get your money's worth...become a monthly donor!)
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To: omegatoo
I also believe He is offended and hurt when we try rationalize sinful behavior by ignoring His teachings and saying, “I know God’s law says this is a sin, but I don’t think it is, and I know better, so not only will I continue to do it, I will try to convince everybody it is not a sin so I won’t feel guilty about doing it.”

And I didn't say such. I said it is sometimes necessary and the best answer. Funny thing is two Nuns and a Priest whom we knew {Priest was a hospital Chaplain} thought the same thing. For that matter they were at the wedding. Oh the devil himself tried to stop it and if not for a Nuns wise advice about my wife's dad it may not have happened. He wanted her put away as in nursing home and her kids in foster care. He was also buddy buddy with her abusive EX. The Nun saw all she needed to see when her Ex came to the hospital to as he so kindly put it watch the B**** die. What church laws cover this? Brother and sister? I don't think so.

You have to look at the fruits which come of things. Case in point what King David to his friend did was evil. How righteous was David? Yet David found favor and forgiveness in GOD's eye. Solomon the wisest man to live did what?

Sometimes churches, Priest, Preachers, etc do not have the right answers and one must pray and act in faith.

Our Preacher didn't tell us not to get married nor did he advise us not to. He saw needs being met well beyond just me and her. He definitely asked us about the spiritual aspects of our relationship. He knew her Ex also. He wasn't a liberal by any means. Missionary Baptist are quite conservative. He was a pew walking spirit filled old country preacher.

In our situation I have clear conscience and I know real well GOD's hand was in it even before my first wife drew her last breath and I would meet my wife now afterward from circumstances that had me taking a job transfer to another part of town. I took that job after her death a few weeks after I had gone back to work.

We'd known each other a few months when we were to meet and with her kids with her see a movie and she collapsed.

During her first week of what was a 6 month hospital stay two preachers from a church she had went to laid hands on her for healing. What happened next is difficult to describe. A presence and a peace came over me unlike any I have felt before or since. From that came a voice though not audible saying "It's going to be OK". We took it initially the wrong way only me and her knew about it as I didn't tell anyone for quite some time about what happened. We thought well she will walk again. Then came planning and decision making time for her care and the kids future. Legally as a boyfriend I had no say. Also I was dealing with the fact I loved her and she loved me. What would have been maybe a year or two down the road relationship into marriage or a life long friendship was becoming more serious and choices had to be made.

I think we made the right one. She has been real good too me and real good for me. Our circumstance lead us into a GOD dependency we may not have otherwise had. Don't get me wrong. I loved my first wife as deep as I do my wife now. But GOD called her home one morning without warning. Even if we had met neither one of us would have entered into a relationship because I was married. Events started unfolding that put me with my wife now that are far beyond happenstance.

It certainly changed me for the better. It brought me to a much deeper relationship with The Lord. No it was not easy especially the first year. We had to overcome a lot and GOD helped us to do so. But she would have been there for me and I know that beyond all doubt. Ignorance and prejudices create some church doctrines cruelest laws. I'm just using your church as an example on this issue. Had we been Catholic and first time married we would have been allow to marry even with her quadriplegia. Had I been the quad? No. Why? Because of the churches rules for validating the marriage. It's insane. A Priest or a Nun can take a vow of celibacy and it be called good but a woman in the church can not marry a man who can not fulfill a sex act? Who writes this stuff? LOL

Her rehab doctor whom we met a month after we married asked us how long we had been married. We said one month and he said good that's a relief. He explained it like this. Many marriages where one spouse or the other becomes seriously disabled has a high chance for failure simple because the other spouse can not accept the others disability and limitations. They want the old spouse and expect the spouse to be as before. Couples dealing with disabilities after the fact and marry have a stronger chance because acceptance of the others limitations has already happened.

So I have no blood kids of my own no big deal. It was possible yes but medically very unadviseable due to her medications and her general health. So I opted out of fatherhood as far as offspring goes. Again a sin in some churches.

However I have two daughters I helped raise from pre-teen to adulthood. They had a needed father figure in a critical time in their life.

GOD does things we can not begin to understand why at the time. GOD wasn't done with me either. About nine years into our marriage my own health took a disabling turn. I was left with my physical strength intact. Mentally was another story. My Sensory Processing System became dysfunctional. On bad days even at home I have some seizure activity in my upper Torso. My ability to concentrate is nil when it starts. My wife has great concentration. My weakness is her strength and my strength is her weakness. Together we function. GOD knew before I was born this would happen. We do have freewill but GOD knows past, present, and future of all.

I can not think of a better match either one of us could have had for this than each other. All of us will fail at things in life. All of us sin. It only takes one sin even the least of them to condemn you to hell in the hereafter. It only takes faith and acceptance that Christ died for our sins and we receive GOD's free to us Grace through faith to save our souls. That is the most important choice we face in this world. That one we must do or else. Not doing that is the sin that leaves one condemned. No one has walked a perfect walk but Christ.

You don't judge an entire picture by a square inch of it. You step back and look at the entire work.

36 posted on 10/24/2013 2:06:26 AM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Kansas58
I suggest that you wait to condemn anyone until YOU become a Bishop or a Cardinal.

How is it that posting Church documents and guidance from priests, bishops, a pope, and the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith is "condemning anyone"? We're all free to choose. We're all free to take it or leave it.

Some suggest that a civilly remarried Catholic can decide for himself or herself whether a previous relationship was a valid marriage. But other people are involved, and no interested party is a good judge of his or her own case. Moreover, a sound judgment requires expertise and training even beyond the usual seminary courses in Church law, so that individuals who attempted to 'judge their own cases very often would be mistaken. Therefore, the Church's law rightly forbids individuals from trying to decide their own cases, even with a priest's advice and help.[7]

Bishop Rene H. Gracida, D. D.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/DIVORCE.HTM

What do you say about that, you judgmental know it all?

I say that when someone responds angrily toward someone else for posting Church teachings and documents that there is a huge amount of projection going on (indicative of an unfortunate lack of objectivity) and in such a case, reliance on the "internal forum" would be a particularly unsound decision.

I also say that to imply that privately applying the "internal forum" is a licit alternative to the tribunal process is wrong and misleading (as is clear to anyone who reads the official teachings and instructions of the Church). The Church has set up a process that we as Catholics should follow out of love for and obedience to our Lord.

BTW, the Kennedy's, Pelosi, Biden etc. rely on the "internal forum" to justify their pro-abort activities. Who would deny that they are on shaky ground there?

37 posted on 10/24/2013 6:27:22 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Kansas58
Many think you are wrong. There is NOTHING you can do about the millions of Catholics, and literally THOUSANDS of Priests and Bishops who think you are wrong.

Since when did the Church become a democracy? Church teaching and guidance on this matter is clear. We are all free to ignore it, but not to deny it.

NO Pope has ever declared that the Internal Forum is NEVER allowed in cases of remarriage.

Nor has any pope ever declared that in regard to this issue, a widespread substitution of personal conscience in place of Church authority is permissible.

38 posted on 10/24/2013 7:07:30 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut
The Bishop you cite is NOT the Bishop of Rome.

Try again.

I suggest the book, “With Open Arms” which has a valid Imprimatur.

This is a debate, this is NOT settled Church law, at least not settled in your favor.

39 posted on 10/24/2013 10:13:51 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: BlatherNaut
The Bishop you cite is NOT the Bishop of Rome.

Try again.

I suggest the book, “With Open Arms” which has a valid Imprimatur.

This is a debate, this is NOT settled Church law, at least not settled in your favor.

40 posted on 10/24/2013 10:13:53 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: omegatoo

You have OUTED yourself as being very ignorant of Church Law.

“. If you choose a non-Catholic wedding, you are not considered married by the Catholic church. If you are not Catholic, I do not see why this would bother you. If you are Catholic, you should be informed about the implications.”

WRONG! The Catholic Church honors and respects other marriages which take place in another Christian Church.


41 posted on 10/24/2013 10:19:15 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58; All
http://www.amazon.com/With-Open-Arms-Catholics-Remarriage/dp/089243810X

Buy this book. Read it. Then get back to all of us.

It has a VALID Imprimatur and it supports what I have posted.

42 posted on 10/24/2013 10:24:00 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
The Bishop you cite is NOT the Bishop of Rome.

Irrelevant. He is citing the Bishop of Rome in communion with the Magisterium.

I suggest the book, “With Open Arms” which has a valid Imprimatur.

From whom, Rembert Weakland? It's apparently an out-of-print booklet from 1995. There are plenty of more recent, clear and authoritative sources available for free online for anyone truly in search of the facts.

This is a debate, this is NOT settled Church law

Unless and until there is an official change in the current law, we are obliged to obey it as is.

43 posted on 10/24/2013 11:45:14 AM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Kansas58

I never claimed to be an authority on Catholicism, just relaying what I understand of Church teachings. I even stated that at the end of my post. Honor and respect are one thing, but I don’t believe that the Catholic Church considers a marriage outside of the Church to be a valid sacramental marriage. You are very angry about this subject, and I don’t think I have done anything to deserve your rudeness. Since you are so versed in Catholic law, answer me this...If someone is divorced after a marriage that was not Catholic, do they have to get that marriage annulled in order to remarry in the Catholic Church?

Love,
O2


44 posted on 10/24/2013 1:48:00 PM PDT by omegatoo (You know you'll get your money's worth...become a monthly donor!)
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To: BlatherNaut
You seem to be in the business of “Bearing False Witness”

I suggest to you that openly violating a Commandment is far more serious than a Catholic who remarries after a divorce, regardless of the circumstances involved.

Especially since you have NO right to know the details, and you absolutely have a duty to not bear false witness.

45 posted on 10/24/2013 2:54:03 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: omegatoo

I think both of us have mistaken the other for the person who is truly angry on this thread.

And YES, prior marriages outside of the Catholic Church would require some examination by the Church, before remarriage would be granted. They are not dismissed out of hand. The Catholic Church does respect other faiths when it comes to marriage.


46 posted on 10/24/2013 2:57:40 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58
You seem to be in the business of “Bearing False Witness”

How is posting Church teaching "bearing false witness"?

I suggest to you that openly violating a Commandment is far more serious than a Catholic who remarries after a divorce, regardless of the circumstances involved.

How is posting Church teaching "openly violating a commandment"?

Can't seem to find the sin of "posting Church teaching" anywhere in the Catechism.

47 posted on 10/24/2013 4:56:29 PM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: BlatherNaut

You are blindly attacking people using “Church Teaching” in an ignorant and judgmental way.

You have no way of knowing the status of any Marriage.

Nobody is required to submit any “Decree of Nullity” to you.

And? The Catholic Church, through the Tribunals, takes any previous “Internal Forum” decision VERY seriously.

When someone states the reasons for that valid decision, a formal “Decree of Nullity” is nearly always granted. However, there are countless valid reasons why pushing for a formal annulment in the External Forum might be a huge mistake.

God will explain it to you someday, if you are truly speaking with a desire to help people.


48 posted on 10/24/2013 7:04:33 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: Kansas58

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


49 posted on 10/24/2013 7:09:27 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Religion Moderator

I do hope you gave the same advice to at least one other person on this thread.

To falsely accuse others of “sin” is rather serious.


50 posted on 10/24/2013 7:20:25 PM PDT by Kansas58
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