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Archbishop Welby: No Sacrifice too Great to Obey Christís Call to Unity
Vatican Radio ^ | 11/1/13

Posted on 11/04/2013 6:37:33 PM PST by marshmallow

(Vatican Radio) The head of the Anglican Communion, the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, said he hopes to “produce a few surprises” with Pope Francis in terms of ecumenical relations between the two churches, but declined to disclose any details.

The archbishop made the comment in an interview with Vatican Radio’s Philippa Hitchen at the 10th Assembly of the World Council of Churches, currently underway in Busan, South Korea.

Listen to the full interview: RealAudio MP3

He also reflected on the challenges and concessions that need to be made for the sake of Christian unity. The longer Christians “exist in different church communities around the world,” he said, “the more our different communities embed their own institutions and put down roots.”

“Perhaps we need to reimagine what it means to look like the church and to surrender some of the things that give us our sense of identity in the cause of Christ,” he said.

The churches need to be sure they are working on the important doctrinal and dogmatic differences between them “in the context of churches and ecclesial communities that say no sacrifice is too great to be obedient to the call of Christ that we may be one,” he said.

Read a transcript from the interview below:

Q.: This is your first WCC Assembly. How important do you see the role of the WCC today?

Archbishop Welby: It’s my first experience, so I’m very much here learning. I think the first thing that struck me is the breadth and scale of the church and I think one of the things that the WCC does is bring together every point of the church, many of which disagree quite strongly, but you get a sense of the breadth and the depth and the width of the work of Christ........

(Excerpt) Read more at en.radiovaticana.va ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ecumenism; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: archbishop; archdruid; canterbury; justinwelby; wcc; welby

1 posted on 11/04/2013 6:37:33 PM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

No “sacrifice” is necessary at all. “God so loved the world that he who believes in HIM shall ever lasting life” , That’s it— Belief is “accepting as true”. Stop this legalistic junk intended to get you to “tithe”. There is no tithe after the atonement. Stop this blasphemy!!


2 posted on 11/04/2013 6:51:44 PM PST by SADMILLIE (r)
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To: marshmallow

This is hilarious. The Church of England and the Episcopalian church in the US and Canada have already forced a schism because of their heterodoxy and outright heresy. The majority of Anglicans in the world now view them as outcasts.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


3 posted on 11/04/2013 7:07:44 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Welfare is the new euphemism for Eugenics.)
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To: SADMILLIE; marshmallow

I searched the entire article: the word “tithe” and the concept of titheing were never used. Perhaps you inadvertently posted your comment to the wrong thread?


4 posted on 11/04/2013 7:13:06 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Acquire the Holy Spirit, and then thousands around you will be saved. " - St. Seraphim of Sarov)
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To: marshmallow

Eh. I separated myself from the Catholic Church because I saw how destructive the behavior of their American leadership (and most of its followers) actually is.

I will not sacrifice babies, innocence of children, the employment & safety of my countrymen, and the sovereignty of my county just for the sake of “unity”.

While I shouldn’t have to separate myself based on what the Catechism says, I very much have to separate myself based on what the leadership and most pew-sitters are _doing_.


5 posted on 11/04/2013 7:37:59 PM PST by Yossarian
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To: miele man

bump for later consideration - once my anger clears.


6 posted on 11/04/2013 7:40:15 PM PST by miele man
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To: marshmallow; TNMountainMan; alphadog; infool7; Heart-Rest; HoosierDammit; red irish; fastrock; ...

“Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.

I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”

Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink

Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.

This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”

These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”

Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?

What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.

But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”

As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him

Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”

Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”

He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve.” [John 6: 49-71]


7 posted on 11/04/2013 7:41:28 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: SADMILLIE

I’ve not listed to the interview but will. From what I’ve read here, I fear that it reminds me of a grand plan from the early ‘60s to unite 9 protestant churches in the US. Called the Consultation on Church Union (COCU), it called for the nine churches to basically unite under one banner while watering down or outright jettisoning theological orthodoxy. Some of these churches were the theologically liberal mainline denominations with the Episcopal Church being the “bridge” church between the Catholic and Protestant churches. “Full union” was never accomplished but all of the churches have moved even further left theologically speaking.

As for the Anglican-Roman talks (ARCIC) Archbp Welby mentions, there is NO way ever that reunion or full communion could take place as long as the Anglican Communion ordains women as priests and bishops among other issues. This is just one theological issue of major difference between the Anglicans and Romans.

Welby seems to be hinting that major theological concessions might be in the offing from one or the other, or both of these church bodies. For this to happen, in my opinion, orthodoxy would have to be sacrificed. Whatever is in the works, it bears very close scrutiny.


8 posted on 11/04/2013 8:11:53 PM PST by miele man
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To: Yossarian
You can't judge the entire Catholic Church because of a few babies or the Bishops.

BTW, You are always a Catholic from your Baptism and Confirmation. You can return at any time.

Check out the following link -- I bet you find a story just like yours!

Coming Home Network


9 posted on 11/04/2013 9:10:32 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: marshmallow

1 Corinthians 8:9-13

“But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.”

The apostles universally condemned idolatry. Here, Paul the apostle writes that if even the association with idolatry harms a fellow-believer, he instructs not to do it.

So, is unity really so important?

Will the Catholic church abandon bowing, praying toward and making offerings to images intended to represent Mary, Christ and others?

Apparently not.

The leaders of the Catholic church have hardened their hearts to the plain commands of Christ and His apostles.

Here is what the Bible says about such leaders: “you sin against Christ”.


10 posted on 11/04/2013 10:59:14 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner; marshmallow
So, is unity really so important?

Indeed. Unity at the expense of truth? Unity in error? Unity in lawlessness?

That is not what Yeshua was after.

11 posted on 11/04/2013 11:36:19 PM PST by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: unlearner

Exodus 25.


12 posted on 11/05/2013 2:23:11 AM PST by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: rwilson99

Yes, there were images which God instructed to set up in the order of worship in Israel. Some were listed in Exodus 25. Other were listed as part of the temple which replaced the tabernacle. Also, God instructed Moses to form a serpent of brass for the people bit by poisonos serpents to look at and be healed. Notice they were not told to bow to it, offer incense to it, or pray to it:

Exodus 20:5
“you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me...”

Leviticus 26:1
“You shall not make idols for yourselves;
neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.”

Judges 2:17
“Yet they would not listen to their judges, but they played the harlot with other gods, and bowed down to them. They turned quickly from the way in which their fathers walked, in obeying the commandments of the Lord; they did not do so.”

Numbers 21:4-9
“Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: ‘Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.’ So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, ‘We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.”

John 3:14-15
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

We see that the brass serpent was a picture of the cross of Christ. But what happened to the brass serpent?

2 Kings 18:4-6
“He [Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. For he held fast to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses.”

It does not say Hezekiah was a Pharisee who invented unnecessary rules (”burdens heavy to bear”). It says he followed God. One example was that he destroyed the brass serpent, the very same brass serpent God told Moses to make.

Why? Because people were offering incense to it.

Let’s see, does anyone today bow down to images of the cross, or images of Christ or other people? Well, yes, as a matter of fact they do. And it is justified by their theological writings as something we are supposed to participate in even though all of the apostles universally condemned idolatry, the Catholic catechism says that God’s laws regarding idols have changed because of the incarnation. But why did the apostles not say this? Why did they forbid idolatry? Could it be the apostolic authority claimed by the Catholic clergy is fraudulent? Could it be they have sinned in practice and in false teachings? Could they be in need of repentance yet remain stubborn in their unrepentance? Could they need to confess their sins but instead deny and cover them?


13 posted on 11/05/2013 9:00:50 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: roamer_1

Agreed


14 posted on 11/05/2013 9:01:18 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

Catholics make offerings to images? Since when? Where? How does that work? What do they offer? How do the images feel about it?


15 posted on 11/05/2013 9:53:59 AM PST by Romulus
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To: marshmallow

If the Anglicans can give up women “clergy”, divorce, contraception, abortion, same sex unions, and congregational domination of their ecclesial structures, we may be able to talk. They have some very nice music programs; we could think about keeping those. Personally I would look forward to the cocktail parties.


16 posted on 11/05/2013 10:05:37 AM PST by Romulus
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To: unlearner

So the cherubim made of gold in the temple... No looking, no touching, not there to inspire any particular thought?

How does that make sense?


17 posted on 11/05/2013 1:14:47 PM PST by rwilson99 (Please tell me how the words "shall not perish and have everlasting life" would NOT apply to Mary.)
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To: rwilson99

“So the cherubim made of gold in the temple... No looking, no touching, not there to inspire any particular thought?”

Images are permitted, but not when they are used as idols which includes bowing to them. I never said anything about looking, touching or thinking. I said EXACTLY what the Bible condemns which is bowing down to these images. Israel did it and was judged. Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpents BECAUSE of this specific act of disobedience by the Jews.

The only symbols Christ and the apostles instructed us to use were water for baptism, and the bread and the cup for remembering Christ in His death. Because these symbols are disposed of, they do not have the risks that the objects in the Jewish worship did. The beautiful, visible images and design of the temple were destroyed in 70 A.D. as Christ said they would be. Neither He nor the apostles ever commanded the making of or use of images in worship, prayer or other service to God. But they did universally warn against idolatry.

But rather than destroy the idols the Catholic church has made, they continue to teach followers to bow to them, pray to them and make offerings such as flowers and incense to them.

If you don’t want to be condemned for these things, then stop doing them and stop teaching people to do them. The more you argue that it is okay to do these things, the greater judgment you bring on yourself.

The Bible is very clear that an idol is a cursed thing and those who commit idolatry become cursed also.

Those who confess and forsake their sins will find mercy, but not those who remain obstinate and unrepentant.


18 posted on 11/05/2013 1:49:03 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Romulus

“Catholics make offerings to images? Since when? Where? How does that work? What do they offer?”

Jeremiah 44:17
“But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.”

What was the first act of the new Pope but to bow to and pray toward an image of Mary’s supposed likeness while offering flowers and incense at the Basilica of St. Mary Major, which is “dedicated to Mary, the Mother of God”?

https://insidethevatican.com/back-issues/april-2013/pope-francis-first-day

“How do the images feel about it?”

Images don’t have feelings. You should be more worried about how the true and living God feels about your offering incense to the “Queen of Heaven”:

Jeremiah 44:4
“I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, ‘Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!’”


19 posted on 11/05/2013 2:14:28 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

But Mary IS the Mother of God. All Westerns Christians have agreed on this since the beginning. Luther and Calvin would have decked you if you’d dared to deny it.


20 posted on 11/05/2013 2:20:01 PM PST by Romulus
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To: unlearner

PS: the article makes no mention of incense.

And even if it did, what would make you think it had been offered to an image?

Were the Jews in the Temple in Jerusalem practicing idolatry when they burnt incense before the altar?

Does a soldier offer worship to a piece of cloth when he salutes the flag?

Get real.


21 posted on 11/05/2013 2:26:33 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus

Your’s is the same kind of response God’s prophets got when He sent them to warn the Jews. I will continue to proclaim the truth for those who have ears to hear it.

You can continue to mock and belittle my warnings of the real, dire threat of idolatry in the Christian church all you want. I will be vindicated that what I am saying is not directed out of malice or hatred but sincere concern to spare people from the destruction that these practices bring based not on my opinion but on God’s word.

Idolatry is not something to trifle with. The Bible says it is a danger to flee (1 Corinthians 10:14).


22 posted on 11/05/2013 2:45:44 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

The Bible says to follow oral tradition too. You do that, right?


23 posted on 11/05/2013 2:48:34 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus

“But Mary IS the Mother of God.”

Not only is it not in the Bible, such a phrase infers meaning where none exists. Mary was the mother of the child, Jesus, after the flesh. After the Spirit, Jesus is the Son of God, having no earthly father.

As Jesus grew to adulthood, at some point He assumed the duties of a son to His earthly mother, Mary, apparently because Joseph died (as he is never mentioned after Christ reaches maturity). On the cross He conferred His earthly responsibilities toward His mother to His trusted disciple John, and ONLY John. He said, “Woman, behold your son.” He did not say sons. From then on Mary lived in John’s house. She did not live with Peter, nor James, nor Paul. She lived with John who also outlived all of the other disciples, being the youngest of them.

The title of God is most often used in scripture to refer to the Father or to all three persons of the Godhead simulateously. My point is that Mary IS NOT the mother of God the Father, nor is she mother to God the Holy Spirit. Though Jesus is God in the fullest sense, yet He is not the only person of the Godhead. Therefore, it is accurate to describe Mary as the mother of Jesus, but it is inaccurate to describe her as the mother of God.

This is the simplest of logical fallacies which is the fallacy of division. If there is one black swan in a lake and some white swans also, it would be wrong to say the swans in the lake are black.

Further, Christ existed before Mary. And He was her Lord and Savior. This is the same theological dilema which the pharisees could not comprehend about Christ being the son of David and yet David calling Him “Lord”. (See Matthew 22:41-46.)

I accept the confirmed authority of the apostles and the words that came directly from their lips and preserved for us on the pages of scripture. I reject the self-proclaimed apostolic authority that meets none of the criteria for apostleship specified in scripture by the apostles. Christ commends those who test those who say they are apostles and find them to be liars. (See Revelation 2:2.) Paul defends his apostleship and tells us what the qualifications are which include having seen the risen Christ, having been personally instructed by Him, and having confirming miracles. Such apostles universally condemn the use of idols, yet the Catholic church claims unfounded apostolic authority and claims we should ignore this commandment to supposedly honor Mary by making images of her supposed likeness and bowing to it and making offerings to it and directing our prayers toward it, and invoking blasphemous names such as “mother of God” upon it. No holy angel or apostle ever accepted men bowing to them but all outright forbad it (though Satan saught for Christ to bow to and worship him, and wicked Herod received worship from his audience for which he died).


24 posted on 11/05/2013 2:56:25 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

Man are you mixed up. If Christ existed before Mary, where was he?


25 posted on 11/05/2013 3:00:02 PM PST by Romulus
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To: Romulus

Matthew 12:49-50
And He stretched out His hand toward His disciples and said, “Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.”

Christ invites His followers to enter into the same personal and intimate relationship that He had with His own earthly mother. She is not exalted above measure in the scriptures. Neither she nor any of the saints of scripture ever sought earthly shrines. God’s servants repeatedly rebuked those who bowed to them.


26 posted on 11/05/2013 3:01:47 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Romulus

Whose oral tradition?

The oral tradition of the apostles was eventually written down for us in a complete Bible.

Only the gnostics believed in a secret knowledge that could only be learned this way.

Before the Bible was complete, the teachings of Christ and the apostles were communicated orally. After the completion of the scriptures their doctrines could be read by the literate and listened to by those who could not read.

You are advocating the exact thing Christ rebuked the religious leaders for during His earthly ministry:

Mark 7:8
“For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men —the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do.”


27 posted on 11/05/2013 3:12:06 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Romulus

“Man are you mixed up. If Christ existed before Mary, where was he?”

Wow. Have you ever read the Bible?

Really, now you are just embarrassing yourself. How could anyone who claims any knowledge of the Bible ask what you just asked?

John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John 6:38
“For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.”

John 6:62
“What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before?”

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 17:5
“And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.”


28 posted on 11/05/2013 3:22:02 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

The title of God is most often used in scripture to refer to the Father or to all three persons of the Godhead simulateously. My point is that Mary IS NOT the mother of God the Father, nor is she mother to God the Holy Spirit. Though Jesus is God in the fullest sense, yet He is not the only person of the Godhead. Therefore, it is accurate to describe Mary as the mother of Jesus, but it is inaccurate to describe her as the mother of God.


Logically:
Mary is the mother of Jesus,
Jesus is God,
therefore Mary is the mother of God the Son.

Your contention is:
Mary is the mother of Jesus,
Jesus is God,
however, Mary is not the mother of God the Son because somehow, God the Son cannot be called God.

The concept of the Trinity is that the three persons are one; co-equal, co-eternal and consubstantial, and each is God, whole and entire.

Therefore, Mary is the mother of God, in the person of the Son, who is God, whole and entire.


29 posted on 11/06/2013 2:38:21 PM PST by rwa265 (Compete well for the faith, lay hold of eternal life (1 Timothy 6))
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To: rwa265

I have no objection to describing Mary as having been the mother of Christ, the mother of the Savior, the mother of Jesus, the mother of our Lord, or even the mother of the Son of God. Some of these are used in scripture. Some are not.

However, “Mother of God” is innacruate for the reasons I have already provided.

Further, there is an obvious effort to elevate and exalt Mary in a way she herself would find grievous.

Nowhere did anyone in the Bible bow to Mary or her likeness. When people wanted to bow to the apostles or make offerings to them, the apostles vehemently protested. When John was tempted to prostrate himself before an angel, the angel forbade him from doing so. Being a holy and godly woman, Mary would have done the same if it happened to her.

What did Christ say about the lofty position of His mother?

Mark 3:35
“For whoever does the will of God is My brother and My sister and mother.”

What did Christ say when a listener proclaimed how blessed Mary was?

Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He said, ‘Yes rather, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”


30 posted on 11/06/2013 7:09:44 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

Further, there is an obvious effort to elevate and exalt Mary in a way she herself would find grievous.


There is also an obvious effort to diminish Mary.

My purpose is not to elevate or exalt Mary; it is to try to understand how Mary can be the mother of Jesus and Jesus can be God, but Mary cannot be the mother of God.

If Mary is the mother of Jesus, it defies logic to say Jesus is God but Mary is not the mother of God. Either Jesus could not be God or Mary would have to be the mother of God. Yet you agree that Jesus is God in the fullest sense. Therefore, Mary must be the mother of God.


31 posted on 11/07/2013 4:47:11 PM PST by rwa265 (Compete well for the faith, lay hold of eternal life (1 Timothy 6))
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To: rwa265

I answered this in post #24. I told you in post #30 that I had already answered this. What I said in post #24 is:

This is the simplest of logical fallacies which is the fallacy of division. If there is one black swan in a lake and some white swans also, it would be wrong to say the swans in the lake are black.

Your argument for calling Mary the “mother of God” is the logical fallacy of division. Now, you saying the same thing over and over is not going to change that this is a logical fallacy. The sooner you realize this is a simple logical principle and not even subject to debate, the sooner you can move on to some other idea or thought which has not already been refuted.

“There is also an obvious effort to diminish Mary.”

The effort is to exalt Christ. He said that the Law and Prophets “prophecied until John” and then the kingdom of Heaven was preached. Christ said that up until that point (i.e. the new dispensation of the kingdom), no one born of women was greater than John the Baptist.

Matthew 11:11,13
“Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he...For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”

This means, and it is without logical fallacy, that John the Baptist was greater than Mary, the mother of Christ. Since Mary was born during the dispensation of the Law and Prophets, and she was born by a woman, according to Jesus (not according to my estimation, but as a matter of fact and not opinion), John was greater than Mary. So here is the point... do we exalt John? Did he seek to be exalted? No.

John said this of himself and of Jesus:

“He (i.e. Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease.” (John 3:30) This is what John said when his followers left him to follow Jesus.

This is the mark of greatness and true spirituality. The Bible gives us many great, godly examples to learn from which includes John, Mary, and many, many others. But Christ is without comparison. He is the One Who is to be exalted more and more, and all others decrease because the exaltation and glory all belong to Him.

Matthew 17:1-8
“Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, ‘Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.’ While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, ‘This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!’ And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. But Jesus came and touched them and said, ‘Arise, and do not be afraid.’ When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only.”

Peter was briefly tempted to make tents on the mountain where Jesus was transfigured. He thought of making three - one for Christ, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.

But what did God say? And this rebuke was just over tents. God does not want shrines set up for these saints, no matter what great, godly examples they may be. To do so is to detract from the glory of Christ. Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, John the Apostle, Peter and Mary all have some scripture which tells us about their lives. These are written for us to learn from, not so we can make shrines to them, make images of them to bow toward and pray toward. Unlike these, ALL scripture is about Jesus. This cannot be said of any other man or woman, including Mary.

This was the mindset of John the Baptist, the apostles, the holy angels, and must have been for Mary as well because she was a godly woman. No godly man or woman or holy angel would accept anyone bowing to them because of their glory or virtue. So the Mary (and the image of her supposed likeness) that is bowed to in Catholic owned facilites around the globe is NOT the same Mary of the Bible. The statues of Jesus they bow to are not the same Jesus of the Bible but are some other Jesus (since the true Jesus, the true Son of God taught against idolatry). Now go learn what the scripture means when it says, “he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached” in 2 Corinthians 11:4.


32 posted on 11/07/2013 7:51:59 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

The sooner you realize this is a simple logical principle and not even subject to debate, the sooner you can move on to some other idea or thought which has not already been refuted.


Sorry for my lack of understanding, but I simply do not follow your logic.

It is true that one cannot assert that, if one swan is black, and other swans are white, then the other swans are black. But I do not see how that negates the assertion that if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God. The two assertions do not appear to be analogous.

The fallacy of division logic structure is, if A is true about B, then it is true about b1, b2, and b3.

To apply this logic to Mary as mother would be to say, if Mary is the mother of God the Son, then she is the mother of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Just as the white swans are not black, Mary is not the mother of the Father or the Spirit. She is the mother of God the Son.

The structure for the assertion that Mary is the mother of God is the transitive property of equality. That is, if A is true about B, and B is true about C, then A is true about C.

That is to say, if Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God. To use your example, if a cygnet is the mother of a swan, and the swan is black, then the cygnet is the mother of a black swan.

I understand how A can be true about B but not true about b1, b2, and b3. But I need further understanding on how A cannot be C if A is B and B is C.


33 posted on 11/08/2013 9:03:53 AM PST by rwa265
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To: rwa265

“then the cygnet is the mother of a black swan.”

True. Mother of “a” swan. Not mother of all swans or some other logical fallacy.

The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. There are three persons of the One True God.

Mary is not the mother of the Holy Spirit. She is not the mother of the Father. She is the mother of Jesus.

Because she is NOT mother to all of the Godhead, she is NOT the “mother of God”. She is the mother of one person of the Godhead, Jesus.

She is only His mother in relation to His humanity because Jesus became a man (i.e. a human being) at the incarnation. But He existed from eternity past, being Creator of all things, INCLUDING Mary His earthly mother.

Further, after the resurrection Paul explains that we no longer relate to Christ in a merely natural way:

2 Corinthians 5:16
“Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.”

What does that mean, to have “known Christ after the flesh”?

He is describing familial and human relationships. For example, James, who wrote the book of the Bible which bears his name, was the Lord’s brother. (See Matthew 13:55) Yet, James does not use his familial relationship as the basis of any authority when he writes letters to the believers. (See James 1:1 and Acts 15:13-29.)

It is not the fleshly and human relationship that James or Mary had with Christ that is the most important. It is the spiritual dimension of their relationship. At one time Christ’s brothers, including James, did not even believe on Him. James’s being a family member did not avail him anything until he later received faith. Likewise, Mary, being Christ’s earthly mother would never have availed her of anything apart from the faith and obedience she demonstrated. It was not her earthly bond of motherhood that makes her an example, but the spiritual pattern.

You can go on and on and on seeking to justify calling Mary “mother of God” along with the many other uniquely Catholic abominations of making images in her likeness to bow down to them, to make offerings to them, to invoke her name as a means of forgiveness of sins (as in saying the Rosary), to call upon her name in prayer, making shrines to her, singing praises to her, and endless other offenses against God and Mary, His servant; but in the end you (as everyone) must give account to God for refusing to obey His commandments.


34 posted on 11/08/2013 10:04:56 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

The structure for the assertion that Mary is the mother of God is the transitive property of equality. That is, if A is true about B, and B is true about C, then A is true about C.


After posting #32, I got to thinking that the above is not quite that simple. A is true about b2, that is, Mary is the mother of God the Son. B is God, b1 the Father, b2 the Son, and b3 the Spirit. So the question is, if Mary is the mother of God the Son (b2), can she truly be called the mother of God without also being the mother of the Father and the Spirit?

This is where the mystery of the Trinity comes in to play. God manifests Himself to us in different ways as He so chooses. As the Father, He has made Himself known to us as a voice from heaven, in the burning bush, in a whisper in the wind. As the Son, He has made Himself known to us in the flesh and in appearances after His resurrection. As the Spirit, He has appeared to us as a dove, tongues of fire, and as a breath. Can the Father become flesh? Can the Son appear as a dove? Can the Spirit become a burning bush? I would guess so. Is God whole and complete in each one of these manifestations? In other words, can the bush be called God? Can the living Christ be called God? Can the dove appearing above Jesus be called God. I believe so. In the same way, I believe Jesus at His birth can be called God, and Mary, as the mother of Jesus, can also be called the mother of God.


35 posted on 11/08/2013 10:23:03 AM PST by rwa265
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To: unlearner

The Holy Spirit is God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. There are three persons of the One True God.


I am truly trying to understand these things. When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, was that the same God whose voice was heard from heaven at the baptism of Jesus and at the Transfiguration? In all these appearances, was that not the One True God, the Godhead? When the Holy Spirit descended on the apostles, was that not the One True God, the Godhead? When Jesus performed miracles and forgave sins, was that not the One True God, the Godhead?

I believe it was the same God, whole and entire, manifesting Himself to us in different ways. And it was the same God who lowered Himself to become a human as the son of Mary. Jesus told Phillip that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him, and further, that the Father dwells in Him. The Father and the Son, along with the Holy Spirit are One, and when God appears to us as one of the three persons, all three are within Him. Just so, when Jesus was born of Mary, all three persons were within Him.


36 posted on 11/08/2013 11:15:36 AM PST by rwa265
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To: rwa265

“when God appears to us as one of the three persons, all three are within Him. Just so, when Jesus was born of Mary, all three persons were within Him.”

Not exactly. There is an aspect or person of the Godhead which has been manifested in the flesh which is Jesus. There is a person of the Godhead who is a Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit, and cannot be seen because He is spirit. (The Holy Spirit has been manifested in visible form, but cannot be seen in His actual essence because that essence is spirit which is invisible to human eyes. See John 3:5-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14.) The Father is a person of the Godhead who has not and cannot be seen directly because to see His face would consume and destroy us because His glory is too intense.

This theology explains what might be perceived by some as paradoxes in scripture.

Exodus 33:11
“So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend...”

Exodus 33:20
“But He said, ‘You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live.’”

How can it be that God spoke to Moses face to face, but then says no one can see His face and live?

John 1:18
“No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.”

It is because ALL of the appearances of God to people in the Old Testament were the pre-incarnate Christ. (See Luke 24:27, John 12:41, and 1 Corinthians 10:9.)

When we read of God walking in the garden of Eden in the cool of the day, it was Christ. (See Genesis 3:8.)

When two angel and another “man” appeared to Abraham on the way to destroy Sodom, Abraham realized the third visitor was God. This was also an appearnace of Christ. (See Genesis 18:2, 33.)

When Jacob saw God in his vision / dream, it was Christ.(See Genesis 28:12.)

When Moses, Aaron and the elders of Israel saw God, they were seeing Christ. (See Exodus 24:9-11.)

When Gideon saw God, he too was seeing Christ. (See Judges 6:22-23.)

When Samon’s parents were visited by a theophany, they realized afterward that they had seen God. This was also Christ. (See Judges 13:22.)

When Isaiah saw the Lord of Hosts in His glory, he was also seeing Christ. (See Isaiah 6:1.)

When the king saw one “like the Son of God” in the fiery furnace, he was seeing Christ. (See Daniel 3:25.)

So when we read that he who has seen the Son has seen the Father, and that the Father is in the Son and the Son in the Father, in John 14:9-10, it does not mean they are the same person. Rather, Christ Jesus is the express image of the Father.

Hebrews 1:1-3
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high...”


37 posted on 11/08/2013 2:57:57 PM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: unlearner

There is an aspect or person of the Godhead which has been manifested in the flesh which is Jesus. There is a person of the Godhead who is a Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit, and cannot be seen because He is spirit. (The Holy Spirit has been manifested in visible form, but cannot be seen in His actual essence because that essence is spirit which is invisible to human eyes. See John 3:5-8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14.) The Father is a person of the Godhead who has not and cannot be seen directly because to see His face would consume and destroy us because His glory is too intense.


It is true that God manifests Himself in different ways; e.g., as a voice from heaven, as a burning bush, as a whisper in the wind, as a dove, as tongues of fire. When He manifested Himself to us as Jesus, He was born of Mary, and became man. And while He was man, he subjected Himself to all things human, including having Mary as His mother.


38 posted on 11/09/2013 3:03:25 AM PST by rwa265
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To: rwa265

“And while He was man, he subjected Himself to all things human, including having Mary as His mother.”

True. This is part of Biblical history.

We celebrate the incarnation, the birth, the ministry of Christ. We learn from the brief lessons recorded on Mary’s life. We learn also of John the baptist, the apostles, etc.

However, Jesus is no longer a babe in a manger. He is the Lord of Heaven in all His glory. We can come to Christ with an understanding and realization of who He is that was not fully understood during His earthly vocation by those closest to Him. This why Mary could merely keep the words spoken and ponder them. This is why it was only after the Lord rose from the dead and also after He was revealed in His glory that His disciples fell down before Him and declared “my Lord and my God”.

The familial relationships are pattern, examples and ways for us to learn; they are NOT the basis for our relationship with Christ, though. As I pointed out before, we no longer know Christ “after the flesh”. Jesus said we can have the same relationship as His mother, sisters, and brother by obedience to His word. Just as Christ was in Mary’s womb for a few short months, now Christ can abide in our hearts through faith.

Mary and the apostles did their job of bringing Christ to us and, through their words, us to Christ. The Law of Moses served the same purpose, to lead us to Christ. Our focus is no longer on these but on Christ, just like a gift wrapped in a package. The gift is beautiful with colors and ribbons and decorations, but we tear these wide open and discard them once we have the gift inside.

All of these people and all of Christ’s servants that follow, if His true servants, share the same message as John, “He must increase, but I must decrease.”


39 posted on 11/09/2013 9:03:31 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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