Skip to comments.Archbishop Welby: No Sacrifice too Great to Obey Christís Call to Unity
Posted on 11/04/2013 6:37:33 PM PST by marshmallow
(Vatican Radio) The head of the Anglican Communion, the Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby, said he hopes to produce a few surprises with Pope Francis in terms of ecumenical relations between the two churches, but declined to disclose any details.
The archbishop made the comment in an interview with Vatican Radios Philippa Hitchen at the 10th Assembly of the World Council of Churches, currently underway in Busan, South Korea.
Listen to the full interview: RealAudio MP3
He also reflected on the challenges and concessions that need to be made for the sake of Christian unity. The longer Christians exist in different church communities around the world, he said, the more our different communities embed their own institutions and put down roots.
Perhaps we need to reimagine what it means to look like the church and to surrender some of the things that give us our sense of identity in the cause of Christ, he said.
The churches need to be sure they are working on the important doctrinal and dogmatic differences between them in the context of churches and ecclesial communities that say no sacrifice is too great to be obedient to the call of Christ that we may be one, he said.
Read a transcript from the interview below:
Q.: This is your first WCC Assembly. How important do you see the role of the WCC today?
Archbishop Welby: Its my first experience, so Im very much here learning. I think the first thing that struck me is the breadth and scale of the church and I think one of the things that the WCC does is bring together every point of the church, many of which disagree quite strongly, but you get a sense of the breadth and the depth and the width of the work of Christ........
(Excerpt) Read more at en.radiovaticana.va ...
No “sacrifice” is necessary at all. “God so loved the world that he who believes in HIM shall ever lasting life” , That’s it— Belief is “accepting as true”. Stop this legalistic junk intended to get you to “tithe”. There is no tithe after the atonement. Stop this blasphemy!!
This is hilarious. The Church of England and the Episcopalian church in the US and Canada have already forced a schism because of their heterodoxy and outright heresy. The majority of Anglicans in the world now view them as outcasts.
Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
I searched the entire article: the word “tithe” and the concept of titheing were never used. Perhaps you inadvertently posted your comment to the wrong thread?
Eh. I separated myself from the Catholic Church because I saw how destructive the behavior of their American leadership (and most of its followers) actually is.
I will not sacrifice babies, innocence of children, the employment & safety of my countrymen, and the sovereignty of my county just for the sake of “unity”.
While I shouldn’t have to separate myself based on what the Catechism says, I very much have to separate myself based on what the leadership and most pew-sitters are _doing_.
bump for later consideration - once my anger clears.
Your ancestors ate the manna in the desert, but they died;
this is the bread that comes down from heaven so that one may eat it and not die.
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.”
The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?”
Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever.”
These things he said while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum
Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?”
Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, “Does this shock you?
What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
But there are some of you who do not believe.” Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him.
And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.”
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him
Jesus then said to the Twelve, “Do you also want to leave?”
Simon Peter answered him, “Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?”
He was referring to Judas, son of Simon the Iscariot; it was he who would betray him, one of the Twelve. [John 6: 49-71]
I’ve not listed to the interview but will. From what I’ve read here, I fear that it reminds me of a grand plan from the early ‘60s to unite 9 protestant churches in the US. Called the Consultation on Church Union (COCU), it called for the nine churches to basically unite under one banner while watering down or outright jettisoning theological orthodoxy. Some of these churches were the theologically liberal mainline denominations with the Episcopal Church being the “bridge” church between the Catholic and Protestant churches. “Full union” was never accomplished but all of the churches have moved even further left theologically speaking.
As for the Anglican-Roman talks (ARCIC) Archbp Welby mentions, there is NO way ever that reunion or full communion could take place as long as the Anglican Communion ordains women as priests and bishops among other issues. This is just one theological issue of major difference between the Anglicans and Romans.
Welby seems to be hinting that major theological concessions might be in the offing from one or the other, or both of these church bodies. For this to happen, in my opinion, orthodoxy would have to be sacrificed. Whatever is in the works, it bears very close scrutiny.
BTW, You are always a Catholic from your Baptism and Confirmation. You can return at any time.
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1 Corinthians 8:9-13
“But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idols temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.”
The apostles universally condemned idolatry. Here, Paul the apostle writes that if even the association with idolatry harms a fellow-believer, he instructs not to do it.
So, is unity really so important?
Will the Catholic church abandon bowing, praying toward and making offerings to images intended to represent Mary, Christ and others?
The leaders of the Catholic church have hardened their hearts to the plain commands of Christ and His apostles.
Here is what the Bible says about such leaders: “you sin against Christ”.
Indeed. Unity at the expense of truth? Unity in error? Unity in lawlessness?
That is not what Yeshua was after.
Yes, there were images which God instructed to set up in the order of worship in Israel. Some were listed in Exodus 25. Other were listed as part of the temple which replaced the tabernacle. Also, God instructed Moses to form a serpent of brass for the people bit by poisonos serpents to look at and be healed. Notice they were not told to bow to it, offer incense to it, or pray to it:
“you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me...”
“You shall not make idols for yourselves;
neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God.”
“Yet they would not listen to their judges, but they played the harlot with other gods, and bowed down to them. They turned quickly from the way in which their fathers walked, in obeying the commandments of the Lord; they did not do so.”
“Then they journeyed from Mount Hor by the Way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the soul of the people became very discouraged on the way. And the people spoke against God and against Moses: ‘Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and our soul loathes this worthless bread.’ So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, ‘We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.’ So Moses prayed for the people. Then the Lord said to Moses, ‘Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.’ So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.”
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”
We see that the brass serpent was a picture of the cross of Christ. But what happened to the brass serpent?
2 Kings 18:4-6
“He [Hezekiah] removed the high places and broke the sacred pillars, cut down the wooden image and broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made; for until those days the children of Israel burned incense to it, and called it Nehushtan. He trusted in the Lord God of Israel, so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor who were before him. For he held fast to the Lord; he did not depart from following Him, but kept His commandments, which the Lord had commanded Moses.”
It does not say Hezekiah was a Pharisee who invented unnecessary rules (”burdens heavy to bear”). It says he followed God. One example was that he destroyed the brass serpent, the very same brass serpent God told Moses to make.
Why? Because people were offering incense to it.
Let’s see, does anyone today bow down to images of the cross, or images of Christ or other people? Well, yes, as a matter of fact they do. And it is justified by their theological writings as something we are supposed to participate in even though all of the apostles universally condemned idolatry, the Catholic catechism says that God’s laws regarding idols have changed because of the incarnation. But why did the apostles not say this? Why did they forbid idolatry? Could it be the apostolic authority claimed by the Catholic clergy is fraudulent? Could it be they have sinned in practice and in false teachings? Could they be in need of repentance yet remain stubborn in their unrepentance? Could they need to confess their sins but instead deny and cover them?
Catholics make offerings to images? Since when? Where? How does that work? What do they offer? How do the images feel about it?
If the Anglicans can give up women “clergy”, divorce, contraception, abortion, same sex unions, and congregational domination of their ecclesial structures, we may be able to talk. They have some very nice music programs; we could think about keeping those. Personally I would look forward to the cocktail parties.
So the cherubim made of gold in the temple... No looking, no touching, not there to inspire any particular thought?
How does that make sense?
“So the cherubim made of gold in the temple... No looking, no touching, not there to inspire any particular thought?”
Images are permitted, but not when they are used as idols which includes bowing to them. I never said anything about looking, touching or thinking. I said EXACTLY what the Bible condemns which is bowing down to these images. Israel did it and was judged. Hezekiah destroyed the brass serpents BECAUSE of this specific act of disobedience by the Jews.
The only symbols Christ and the apostles instructed us to use were water for baptism, and the bread and the cup for remembering Christ in His death. Because these symbols are disposed of, they do not have the risks that the objects in the Jewish worship did. The beautiful, visible images and design of the temple were destroyed in 70 A.D. as Christ said they would be. Neither He nor the apostles ever commanded the making of or use of images in worship, prayer or other service to God. But they did universally warn against idolatry.
But rather than destroy the idols the Catholic church has made, they continue to teach followers to bow to them, pray to them and make offerings such as flowers and incense to them.
If you don’t want to be condemned for these things, then stop doing them and stop teaching people to do them. The more you argue that it is okay to do these things, the greater judgment you bring on yourself.
The Bible is very clear that an idol is a cursed thing and those who commit idolatry become cursed also.
Those who confess and forsake their sins will find mercy, but not those who remain obstinate and unrepentant.
“Catholics make offerings to images? Since when? Where? How does that work? What do they offer?”
“But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the Queen of Heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble.”
What was the first act of the new Pope but to bow to and pray toward an image of Mary’s supposed likeness while offering flowers and incense at the Basilica of St. Mary Major, which is “dedicated to Mary, the Mother of God”?
“How do the images feel about it?”
Images don’t have feelings. You should be more worried about how the true and living God feels about your offering incense to the “Queen of Heaven”:
“I have sent to you all My servants the prophets, rising early and sending them, saying, ‘Oh, do not do this abominable thing that I hate!’”
But Mary IS the Mother of God. All Westerns Christians have agreed on this since the beginning. Luther and Calvin would have decked you if you’d dared to deny it.