The Two Witnesses and Today's World Leaders

IFB ^ | 11/11/13

[Flag_This]

"Then I could point out Lazarus - you know, the whole back-from-the-dead thing, the child Elijah or Elisha raised, the boy the Apostle Paul raised, etc."

They were mostly dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead.

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

no offense taken, but i hope you don’t take offense when i say that many false teachers have arisen and have fooled many.

the whole Bible, from Genesis to Revelation tells the story of God’s love for His people, namely the gift of salvation in the person of Jesus Christ.

where many go wrong is not realizing the OT is full of types and shadows looking forward to the promised birth, death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus is the seed of Abraham and anyone who is Christ’s is an heir to all the promises made to Abraham and Israel in the OT.
national Israel, the OT equivalent or type of the Church, was cursed and the kingdom removed from them for unbelief. ( Mark 11:12-25 and Matthew 21:43 )
there were and always have been individual Jews who believe Jesus was sent from the Father and is their Messiah, but the vast majority throughout the NT time period rejected Jesus, including through today. only those who are Christ’s are heirs to the promises to Abraham,( Galatians 3:29 ) and the true Jew is one inwardly, one who is a believer in Jesus and not a literal Jew according to the flesh ( Romans 2:29 )
the book of Revelation is highly symbolic and must be read the way the rest of the Bible is read, what does it mean in salvation history? it is much too long to explain in a post on FR, but simply put the two witnesses are the Church, which was sent out by Jesus to plunder Satan’s kingdom after Jesus bound Satan at the cross. right before the end of the world, the period i believe we are in now and have been since Vatican II, Satan has been loosed and we are witnessing a mass apostasy from the true Faith and Satan actually sitting in the temple of God ( the temple being the Church, not some brick and mortar structure in literal Jerusalem, that is an impossibility )the world is rejoicing that the testimony of the Church has been effectively silenced through false doctrine of Vatican II and the various scandals in the Church. there is still a remnant that still holds to the historical Apostolic Faith, and we have been told to flee to the mountains, which i understand to mean pray and keep your eyes looking up, because Jesus Christ is surely returning soon to take away the believers in the air at the end of the world.

[StormPrepper]

The problem with this logic is that it assumes that every prophet that ever lived is named in the books chosen to be in the Bible.

Also when ever a prophesy mentions a known prophet from the past they are called by name. Prophets of the future are not called by name.

The two prophets spoken of in Rev 11 are not known to the world. Or are known but not accept by the world. Plus the Muslim world recognizes the Old Testament prophets as prophets and would fall down at their feet if they showed up.

These two prophets are not and will not be accepted by the Catholic Church or Evangelical Christianity or any of the Protestant denominations.

The first thing a true prophet does is testify of Jesus Christ. The second thing is they correct doctrinal mistakes. They teach truth. So 95% of "traditional" Christianity will reject them outright. Especially on the doctrine of infant Baptism.

It's the absolute law of God that if you reject the servant you reject the master who sent him. Even in the small amount of things we have recorded of the conversations of Jesus, He mentions this twice. So in reality He must have talked about it a lot.

Matt 7:
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

People that believed and professed that Jesus is Lord, and had the faith to many great things, but were cast off at the judgement anyway.

[Campion]

There’s not a verse of Scripture that says that the “two witnesses” will say a single word on the topic of infant baptism.

[StormPrepper]

Your reply proves my point as to why most of "Christianity" will reject them. They will teach truth and will teach correct doctrine. All doctrine.

Rev 11 says they will prophesy, which means something we haven't heard yet. The "it's not in the Bible" crowd are going to call them false prophets. Again, especially if they teach something that's new and hasn't been revealed yet. Or teach something that was previously revealed but was rejected by the Catholics so it wasn't included in what is now the Bible.

2 Chron 9:
29 Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

[colorcountry]

1. We thank thee, O God, for a prophet
To guide us in these latter days.
We thank thee for sending the gospel
To lighten our minds with its rays.
We thank thee for every blessing
Bestowed by thy bounteous hand.
We feel it a pleasure to serve thee
And love to obey thy command.

LDS.org

[StormPrepper]

Here's another clue as to their identity.

Rev 11:
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them
, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Who on the earth feels tormented because of the righteous?

Who among the wicked would be so vile as to give gifts to each other over the death of two righteous men? Why do they feel tormented, because the prophets stand against homosexual marriage and homosexuality.

Who on the earth even claims to be a real prophet; teaches something new; testifies of Jesus Christ; and is hated by the homosexuals?

[one Lord one faith one baptism]

“prophesy” does not mean saying something we have not heard yet, in fact, since revelation ended with the death of the Apostle John, we have the complete Word of God and we are not to be looking for new revelation ( sorry Joseph Smith )
prophesy means to declare the Word of God, not come with new revelation or predict the future.
the “it’s not in the Bible crowd” will call them false prophets if what they say doesn’t match up with the Apostolic Faith because they will indeed be false prophets ( sorry Joseph Smith )
we already have Moses and the prophets, if people will not listen to them they will not believe if someone were to rise from the dead ( Luke 16:31 )
by “teaching correct doctrine” do you mean:
1. God the Father had sexual relations with Mary?
2. the Jesus is the brother of the devil?
3. that we can become “God” ourselves someday?

question for TIF and F15:

how will we know it is Moses and Elijah? no one living has ever seen them, do we take their word?
what will Moses and Elijah preach? will they preach Jesus Christ as Messiah to national Israel?
why if Jesus said Himself that the people have Moses and the prophets and will NOT believe even if someone were to come back from the dead, why send Moses and Elijah AGAIN??
Jesus already said they will not be believed!

[redleghunter]

Good post. I agree with most of it. Where I differ is on Revelation and Israel.

And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.(Luke 21:24)

God is not finished with Israel.

Romans 11:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Of course Paul is mentioning Gentiles and Jews in the above passage.

You have stated to approach Revelation carefully because it is symbolic. I agree there are symbols in Revelation, however, like the OT prophecies Revelation will be 100% fulfilled as stated. God, as you would agree, has a 100% fulfillment rate:) That goes for OT prophecies yet to be fulfilled that are intended for Israel.

I understand your point about the seed of Abraham in the fulfillment of Jesus Christ. There is no other way to salvation other than in Jesus Christ. Where I part company is where it is stated Israel=Church. One can draw some very logical conclusions that is so, IF Revelation was never revealed. My point? We would all agree to some varying degree that Revelation was penned sometime after Pentecost and before the end of the 1st Century by John an apostle of Jesus Christ. When John received the Revelation, we would also agree the Church, the Body of Christ was already established as being apart from Israel and the Temple worship (even more so after the Temple destruction in 70 AD). Why then does Revelation not say Church when it says Israel? God goes into such detail on naming the tribes of Israel in Revelation 7. Why not just name the bishops or church regions etc. Why Israel if God did not mean Israel? Thought provoking.

Also interesting is the fact that any mention to church or churches are no longer seen after chapter 3 in Revelation. After that we have references to the scene in Heaven, the 24 elders, "the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb", "the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held", the sealed of Israel in chapter 7, "chosen" (elect) and "faithful" are named. No hint after chapter 4 of church or "ekklesia". Also, thought provoking.

For us to hand wave Revelation as a giant book of symbols is error in my opinion. For in Revelation we have the following in Chapter 4 before all the otherworldy stuff begins:

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

[redleghunter]

One thing is CERTAIN. Whoever the two witnesses are, they are literally witnesses and literally two people. Just as John the Baptist was a real man. Another CERTAINTY is they will proclaim the same Faithful and True message the apostles delivered-—The Gospel of Jesus Christ crucified, died, buried and three days later rose from the dead.

If they don’t preach the shed Blood of Jesus Christ “cleanseth us from all sin” and the Resurrection, then such “witnesses” are false.

[redleghunter]

CNN will no doubt be covering and Rachel Maddow will have some “other” explanation.

Revelation 11:

9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow[d] their dead bodies to be put into graves.

Yep everyone will see them and we do have the technology for this to happen now.

[StormPrepper]

"in fact, since revelation ended with the death of the Apostle John, we have the complete Word of God and we are not to be looking for new revelation"

No where has God said revelation ended. No where. Has the work of God ended? Is God not alive? God is not dead and His work is not finished therefore revelation has not ended.

Amos 3:
7 Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

To claim an end to revelation is to claim that there's a limit to God's power.

"we have the complete Word of God"

This is an evangelical myth. Made up to placate their consciences because they have no prophets and have no revelation. Amos 7 makes it clear. God does nothing except through a prophet. Where was the prophet at the counsel of Nicea?

"prophesy means to declare the Word of God, not come with new revelation or predict the future."

You've lowered a prophet to be nothing more than a preacher. Was Moses just a preacher? Was John, Paul, Isaiah, Abraham, Noah..."just" a preacher? Ridiculous. These me were Prophets, they spoke to God face to face.

Rev 11:
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

These men are no different, they stand before God. They have the very power of God at their command just like Moses. And they will prophesy just like all Prophets do. Amos 7 also makes it clear that a prophet reveals the "secrets" of God.

[colorcountry]

Where there prophets on earth with Christ? If so, who were they?

[StormPrepper]

" If they don’t preach the shed Blood of Jesus Christ “cleanseth us from all sin” and the Resurrection, then such “witnesses” are false."

So, if they don't do what you think they should be doing, you'll reject them as prophets, is that right?