SSPX disrupts interfaith service at Buenos Aires cathedral

I see no difference between that than you telling somebody:

as I did say;

"So now you know -- more than you once did."

Why does this need explaining?

There is a difference between not knowing something, and being stupid.

But I already explained what an "alleged, almost quote" was.

I'll not do so again.

You say such as, directing it towards me, the "I" in the below sentence;

"...from whom I got my faith, such as it is"

That is still getting personal, and making "me" the subject of the thread. I do wish yourself and others could refrain from engaging in that sort of thing.

"So stick to your knowledge and don't attempt to teach Catholics, from whom you got your faith..."

No sir, not much of any which comprises my own faith comes from "Catholics" of any recent century...or if in any way so, not requiring that all things peculiarly "[Roman] Catholic" be accepted, for not all "there" is in agreement even with itself, before even getting around to discussion of the various errors of practice and attitude that have crept in over the centuries, some of which have seemingly calcified, in the minds of *some* [Roman] Catholics. As the saying goes...mileage will vary (in this instance, as to which "Catholic" espouses "what").

As it is written, Hebrews 12

2 looking unto Jesus, the author* and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I don't mistake a pagan dancing around a stick, for worshiping the one true God...

Neither does official teaching of your own church indicate that anyone is to pray "to" crucifixes, although it is widely spoken of (in RCC realms) that it is recommended to pray "before" (as in front of/in presence of) of such images. The next step, the praying to (rather than the more often spoken of "before", as in front of) only comes naturally to fleshly mind attempting to grasp spiritual truths, which inevitably results in making even the things of God into that which is idolatrous, seeking power from the object or representation of what is heavenly, even if but as a channel. For to the pagan, groping in the darkness for God or a god, singular stones or "groves" of trees can be considered dwelling places of "spirits", or as mentioned, channels by which one may access realm of spirit.

The Apostle Paul, addressing the Athenians at the Areopagus; Acts 17

24 The God who made the world and everything in it, he who is Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by human hands, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mortals life and breath and all things.

It is noteworthy that there is not a single instance of Paul recommending anyone pray to crucifixes, or any other physical representation of God. He is recorded as doing the opposite, leading in the other direction. As well he should, for he knew the Law, having that same law illuminated within himself by the Lord.

Once again;

Exodus 20
4

whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above

5

You shall not bow down to them or worship them

The earliest Christians, including the Apostles and for several generations afterwards, did not teach that physical representations or images should be made of Christ, and that such items would become "holy" due to their subject matter. But pagans do that sort of thing natually to this day investing much of their misguided faith in charms, talisman, etc. The God of the Hebrews, the Creator does not seek such form of worship for Himself.

God's spirit does not dwell in talisman --- or even crucifixes placed within "shrines"...or else Paul and a host of others had it all wrong (which is highly doubtful). It's much more consistence to see the later developments as what is pagan-like return to bowing down before a "stick" or block of wood -- but dressed in Christians clothes --- even with representative image of Christ Himself.

1 Kings 19

11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:
12 and after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.
Below is link to a fairly good article regarding the usage of "still small voice" or "whisper" etc, which mentions and offers some insight why the passage is translated in various ways at that juncture.
Kol demama daka is standardly translated as 'a still, small voice'. An accurate translation of it would be 'the sound of a thin silence'."

Now for some of my own testimony:

I have had the Lord yell (as it were) at me (to save my life, twice)...I have had the Lord, speaking to me through and by His Spirit, be at times angry with me, reproving, correcting.

At many other times, His voice simple, plain, matter-of-fact...calm, steady, betraying little to no "emotion", using few words...while also, other than being directed with speech as it were -- thoughts in word form, brought by the Spirit, at times He has make known to me His thoughts and His "emotions concerning a few particular matters (though not precisely what I am now discussing -- as to crucifixes and the like -- I should add as disclaimer and for clarity's sake) with His "feelings" as revealed, being those of great depth & power, even frighteningly so.

You guys don't scare me. He does.

By His holy Spirit sent to (even) me... I have in times past been ministered to more sweetly than anything that can be known, of this earth...and yes too, heard Him too, as a very small and still voice, so small that if one not know the sound of His voice and recognize that when it comes --- then it be otherwise simply dismissed out-of-hand.

But "stick to my knowledge" and "don't attempt to teach" you say --- while you yourself put your own self forth as "teacher" of things "Catholic". Right.

Do as I say, but not as I do. Uh-huh. I hear it loud and clear...and in comparison to your cohort here -- I don't have to make things up, or distort what is there to make the case.

You have still not convinced me. I get what you are trying to say with your analogy, but it is not a good analogy.

*Objectively* speaking if I reject something/anything I can not be worshipping them at the same time. Rejecting and worshipping are opposites. I may *think* I am doing so, but in reality I am not.

Listen, I am a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith. The issue of the Jews and who they worship means a lot more to me than the average Catholic on this forum. It is obviously a sensitive topic for me. When I was Jewish, did I think I was worshipping the Father? OF course! Was I? Not if I rejected Jesus who explicitly stated that I was also rejecting His Father. At the same time, no I was not praying to a pagan god, of course. But I was not worshipping the Father either.

I’m not sure where the *false gods* idea comes in to be quite honest. I also wonder whether what was written in the OP article about what was in the SSPX “literature” was even accurate. Given that there is a general anti-SSPX slant to most articles out there (as well as most Catholics in this forum), it wouldn’t surprise me if it was misquoted.

To me, it’s probably more of the same: “SSPXer’s show their anti-Semitic colors again!” Because you can’t possibly be against Jewish worship in a Catholic cathedral without hating the Jews! /sarcasm

I do appreciate your honesty though about where you stand on the shouts of “anti-Semitism!” I can at least have an honest discussion with someone who at least recognizes that this isn’t about how much a group of people hate the Jews and more about the new religion found in the Church post Vatican II.

And honestly, I don’t see how you can say that Protestant prayers are similar to Jewish prayers. One group has not rejected Christ and the Father.

Good grief, a long one. One thing is true, you(pl) have not gotten your faith from any recent Catholic; you(pl) got it from Catholic Matthew, Catholic Mark, Catholic Luke, Catholic John, Catholic Paul, Catholic James and Catholic Jude, as well as from the countless Catholic fathers of the Catholic church, of whom you can be presumed to be wholly ignorant. No one said otherwise. This is why there could be no ecumenism with Jews and Protestants other than on Catholic terms, with Crucifixes, statues and icons and the totality of the Catholic faith, with Mary's prayer and the prayer of all the saints, with Her Son offered on the Catholic altar.

It is noteworthy that there is not a single instance of Paul recommending anyone pray to crucifixes, or any other physical representation of God

Is that not a recommendation?

O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been set forth, crucified among you? (Galatians 3:1)

For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the firstborn amongst many brethren (Romans 8:29)
we all beholding the glory of the Lord with open face, are transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as by the Spirit of the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:18)

So the Holy Image of Christ is something that convicts us of error; to which His elects are to be comfortable; to which we are ourselves transformed. But all that we are to accomplish without praying because one Protestant whiner or another does not feel at ease with the idea?

we preach Christ crucified
unto the Jews indeed a stumblingblock
and unto the Gentiles foolishness

I am a Jewish convert to the Catholic Faith

Thank you for your witness.

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word of life: For the life was manifested; and we have seen and do bear witness, and declare unto you the life eternal, which was with the Father, and hath appeared to us: That which we have seen and have heard, we declare unto you, that you also may have fellowship with us, and our fellowship may be with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things we write to you, that you may rejoice, and your joy may be full. ( 1 John 1:1-4)

Catholic WHO? THose men were all JEWS. Well Except for Luke.

I didn't even go to the trouble to read the rest of your screed. ANd I won't.

Go praY TO A STICK.

The Holy Apostles were ethnic Jews, and Christ converted them, so they became Catholic by faith.

At the same time, no I was not praying to a pagan god, of course. But I was not worshipping the Father either.

Okay, I see where you are coming from, though I would probably use a different wording as I think this is imprecise and can lead to multiple interpretations requiring a lot of explaining about what is really intended. I will expand on this immediately below.

I’m not sure where the *false gods* idea comes in to be quite honest.

It is from further up the thread, and it was that which I responded to and commented on. There was one comment which spoke specifically to Jews not praying to the same God we do, and this leaves little doubt that it is thought that they pray to a pagan god. Now, I think some people are not catching this directly because they appear to be using "worship" not to mean worship, but rather something much more expansive, like "worship with real honour and so as to gain eternal life and grace from God." This, frankly, just doesn't work when you get down to it, and it is a very incorrect and strange usage of the word. It just doesn't mean that in English, and whether any devotion or act is effective in terms of eternal life is irrelevant so far as what the word worship actually conveys in a sentence. That is why I can say that one person might worship Hindu gods, another money, another fame, and another maybe even himself. In none of these is there any efficacy to the devotions, but they are all worship just the same. Therefore, the sentence "the Jews do not worship the same God as the Christians" is a huge problem. We Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and if the Jews worship a different god, which must be if they don't worship the same God and they most assuredly worship something, then they must be worshiping a false, pagan god. But, of course, that is simply not true, and therefore I have objected to these claims.

I do appreciate your honesty though about where you stand on the shouts of “anti-Semitism!” I can at least have an honest discussion with someone who at least recognizes that this isn’t about how much a group of people hate the Jews and more about the new religion found in the Church post Vatican II.

No, in this I think we are clearly on the same ground. These unfounded charges of anti-semitism against any people who honour tradition (and it really is about anti-traditionalism in the end) is just as offensive to me intellectually as are the charges that Jews pray to pagan gods. I don't like false charges against people. Disagreeing with the Jews is not the same as hatred of them as a people. It is, actually, the opposite. You cannot treat a sick person and not recognize they have an illness, and you cannot help a lost person while denying they are lost. The silly actions and claims of the anti-traditionalists, accusing honest and God fearing Christians of every heinous and calumnious charge they can think of because of their refusal to recognize even the tiniest error in non-Christians of any kind, just demonstrates where their heart is. They see any criticism of the religion of Jews and Muslims as hate-speech, and yet say horribly evil things of their fellow Catholics, on a personal level, every day. I think it is pretty clear where their heart is with that kind of behaviour.

As ebb tide said;

I see no difference between that than you telling somebody:

so, "ebb tide" person, after reviewing Sal's note here [link following] all is ok now?--->http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3094752/posts?page=24#24

Or was the usage there, also "bad" enough to be well, bad, getting too personal, what-have-you?

Or --- perhaps somebody could say, "ok, I see what you mean", no hard feelings concerning this particular aspect.

Otherwise, the sun has gone down on the angers, rose again, and there was some dark & stormy rain...and during the cold snap, roots of bitterness, beneath the ground, continue to spread.

I'm running low on the sort of Roundup one might spray on the leaves of this sort or weedy commentary, and being as the first applications of that treatment brought no visible results, now resort to using the garden spade in hopes that digging the roots up, will stop that particular clump from reappearing...for those bitter roots sort-of choke out some of the rest of the flowers & greenery which can be seen around here...

The trouble with going that route, off course, is disturbing other nearby portion of lawn & garden, if but stepping on it, to get to the weeds.

Then again, some "weeds" are as much beneficial plant as any other, with the flowering sort being lovely graze for butterfly, and bee.

We [northern hemisphere] are heading into winter, but I hope to have some hope, for Spring.